Maile: Welcome to AllRedding.

Stephanie: Thank you.

Maile: I'm here with Stephanie Jensen from the Doula Alliance. And welcome.

Stephanie: Thank you.

Maile: I'm Maile Ballard. I'm one of the founders of AllRedding. And usually, we see Joey on here, but Joey's stepping out. We're having a girls' day today.

Stephanie: Yay.

Maile: So, tell me a little bit about the Doula Alliance and what you do. Just a brief explanation of it.

Stephanie: Sure. Well, the Doula Alliance itself has two main functions. It's a doula sisterhood where we can support one another, those who are experienced doulas or doulas in training, where we get together on a regular basis and share birth stories, share encouragement, provide continued education, and even use each other for backup, that kind of thing. And then primarily, it's a doula training organisation, where we're training aspiring new doulas to do what I love.

Maile: Awesome.

Stephanie: So, it's a pleasure to do it. On the side of that, I get to actually support clients through their births and through their pregnancies and postpartum period, which is a great joy and pleasure. And so we get to provide that for the community.

Maile: Yay. So, tell me what a doula is. For those of us who may not know that, who may not be parents yet.

Maile: So tell us about being a doula, what that is, and a little bit about the birthing community in general.

Stephanie: Yeah, it's one of my favourite things to talk about, so not a problem. I think if I would go back to my second birth experience, that was where I was first introduced to the idea of what a doula was. We had our first in the hospital and it had gone smoothly and beautifully and it was a wonderful experience. But we kinda had to swim upstream to get the birth that we were looking for. And it just felt like we shouldn't have to fight for what we wanted. We wanted birth support that was of the same mindset that we had that felt like they wanted the same things as we did for our birth. And so we were introduced to the midwifery model of care. And we were down in Southern California at the time, so this was. We'd had our first son and this was our second son. And got to experience a whole different side of things of having the midwife come to us for our prenatal visits and spend an hour with me in my living room talking about not just my fetal heart tones and how my belly was measuring that week, but also how I was doing, how I was feeling emotionally. Was my nest feeling prepared to welcome a baby? Did I have any concerns on my heart?

Stephanie: And having that time to build that relationship was wonderful. And I had room to ask as many questions as I needed to. And because I had so much interest in birth and asked so many questions, my midwives commented on more than one occasion, "You might have birth in your future." They said, "Maybe you should consider becoming a doula." I was like, "What's a doula?" I had never heard of a doula before then. That was the spark.

Maile: That was the spark.

Stephanie: I look back and I'm like, "Thank you, Callie and Corinne, for sparking the interest in birth for me." And that experience was just so night and day different and beautiful, being able to birth our baby in our home, in a tub with bouquets of flowers around and candles lit and worship music playing. And it was just lovely.

Maile: So did you have a doula in that first birth?

Stephanie: I didn't have a doula. I actually didn't have a professional doula of my own until my fourth birth.

Maile: Oh, wow. So you made it all the way through?

Stephanie: I made it all the way through, all those babies. And then I even got to. After, let's see, three or four years of being a doula myself, finally got to experience the joy of having my own professional doula by my side.

Maile: Oh, wow.

Stephanie: And so I can testify that even though having family by your side, having my mom and my sister support me for those two births, number two and number three, it still is not quite the same as having a trained professional that has an outside, unbiased perspective coming in to provide the support that you need. Their insight and their experience and their presence is just different, even than a loving family member who's had babies of their own. It's just still not quite the same. And so to answer your question, what a doula is, what a doula does, they are a birth professional, somebody who has gone through training and has experience in providing support, not only through the labour and birth, but through the prenatal period, leading up to the birth, preparing the couple for what birth is going to look like, helping them to practice comfort measures, relaxation techniques, breathing methods, answering their questions, helping them develop their birth plan and getting them ready for welcoming this baby in the most positive way possible that yields the most positive birth experience for them.

Stephanie: And then in the postpartum period, they can provide additional support as much as the family needs, but overall, they're looking to primarily shape the couple's view of their birth experience and make sure that they had the birth that was best for them, that their wishes were honoured, their dreams were supported. If things went sideways, that that was handled gracefully. But even when things go smoothly, there are still tears that come, and emotions that have to be processed, and doulas can help facilitate all of that. It's a very special privileged role that we get to play. In birthing new families, it's not just the baby that we're welcoming. Much of the time, it's new first-time parents, and that can shape their confidence in their parenthood, in their motherhood, their fatherhood. How the birth goes plays a huge role in how they feel moving forward. "Can I raise this baby? Can I figure out nursing? Can I get through this really tough day?" A lot of times, it's looking back at like, "Okay, well, I did that, so I can do this."

Maile: Right.

Stephanie: And I think the doula helps facilitate that.

Maile: It's funny because I think a lot of people go into birthing, a lot of first-time moms. I think the trend is changing, but I think they're like, "Oh, well, I'm just. I see the doctor and then I'm going to go to the hospital, and I'm going to have the baby, and then maybe my husband or my boyfriend will be there, maybe holding my hand, or maybe he'll be waiting outside. I don't know."

Stephanie: Right.

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Maile: And maybe they've read a book, but it doesn't really prepare you for the actual experience. I know a lot of people are like, "Oh yeah, I read all the books," and then they went in there and you don't remember.

Stephanie: No.

Maile: You forget every. It's like your mind just. Everything just goes blank and you're like. You're just present.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Maile: And I think that you don't even real. Oftentimes I think women don't even really know that they need that support. And it's not really passed down through the generations, which. The knowledge of child birthing, the knowledge of being pregnant, the knowledge of the postpartum period, which includes caring for yourself as well as caring for the baby, I'm like, I don't know very many people who can say, "Oh yeah, my mother or my grandmother, they were there and they passed down all this valuable information." Maybe a little bit of tidbits about, "Oh, when you were little, I fed you this," or, "When you were little, you did this and you started to walk." But there's so little about the actual technicalities of what you go through and how to really rock that whole period of your life.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Maile: So tell me a little bit more about how people find you. Is it mostly first-time parents or is it people who had a hospital birth and then they're having a home birth? Or do you also do hospital births? Tell me a little bit more about how clients find you and what kind of clients you have.

Stephanie: So many good questions within that. So many good answers. I would think that the first thing that I would speak to is that I often receive that question, of like, "Can you only have a doula if you're going to have a natural home birth or if you're going to have a natural unmedicated hospital birth?" And the answer to that is no. Doulas are for every birth. You can have a doula no matter what kind of birth you're having. You can have a doula for your C-section, which may seem like an odd thought to people, but it's still a birth and it still needs support. And so whether you're planning a plan to c-section or you're planning to get the epidural as soon as you darn can, or if you're going for that natural birth or that VBAC or that home birth, that water birth, you can have support for any one of those scenarios. And it's the doula's job to come and support your wishes and your desires. Not her agenda, your agenda. And so people can find a doula in many different ways. There are search engines online as far as like. I think there's a site called doulamatch.com.

Maile: Oh, nice.

Stephanie: They can can find Doula Alliance, our website, doulaalliance.com. I think, though, mostly here in Redding, and it's my pleasure that it comes this way, most of my referrals come by word of mouth, in that. It only takes a couple great clients, a couple great birth experiences, and then they tell their friends and they tell the people that they know, "This is how my birth went, and this was my doula. And it was so wonderful to be supported by her." And then when they get pregnant or when they have friends that get pregnant, they pass your name along. And then you get the pleasure of working with wonderful clients every single time.

Maile: Right. Yeah.

Stephanie: And I think those are the referrals and the resources that we trust the most anyway. When we hear it from somebody we know as opposed to just finding that name online, then we already feel like this friend of mine whom I trust and whose opinion I trust has told me about this experience of hers, and so then I feel like I could trust right off the bat, they're giving me a call and they're feeling right off the bat that they know confidently that I could be a great fit for them. And then we talk on the phone, and then after that, we meet in person. And if it's a confirmation of like, "Yes, this is a great fit," we click well, we connect well. And my personality and giftings and skillset are a good match for what they're looking for, then we move forward from there. I'm not always the right doula for every person. And that's okay. It's more important to me, and it should be more important to every doula out there, that their client gets the doula who's right for them, who's the best fit for them, than that they land every single client they interview with.

Maile: Yeah. From what I understand, it's not something that you think about because you're like, "Oh, well, I'm going to just go with this doctor. I'll just go with this midwife, or this doula." And it's not. Sometimes it's so much about personality because you're in a really emotional situation. You want to feel fully comfortable, because sometimes things don't. Like, if you're really tense and you're not feeling comfortable in your space and you're not jiving with that personality or that person, it's like you don't. Things don't flow as well. Things don't progress as well when you're in the moment. And so you really want to have that feeling, whatever their style is. I know there's many different styles. So it's not something that you really think about, but it's. At the same time, it's like you do want to find the right person.

Stephanie: You do. You do. Some people are looking for a doula who's more of a cheerleader, a coach, who's going to keep it positive and keep the energy going, keep them going the whole time. Others are looking for more that maternal figure, maybe because their mom isn't able to be present. She's far away and they're missing their mom and they want that doula to fill that role for their heart and their spirit and that energy. Others are looking for just a very even keel, easygoing, quiet, peaceful presence. So it's important to find that right fit. And I think what often gets missed in people's decisions in preparing for their birth too, is the fact that their care provider is a vendor of sorts. They have the freedom, really, to change OBs if they want to, to change midwives, that person is an important part of the equation, that they also have the freedom to adjust, that if they're going through their prenatal care with their doctor and they're finding that, "Hmm, he's not agreeing with me on that point," or, "Hmm, she doesn't seem on board with this wish that I have," it's okay to consider making a change. They are paying for that service.

Maile: Yeah.

Stephanie: They can choose to say, "You know what? I think I might be in better hands and I might have a more positive birth experience if I went with this care provider instead."

Maile: That's a really good point because I think a lot of time, women are just like, "I'm in the passenger seat. I'm not in the driver's seat."

Stephanie: Right.

Maile: I'm here and maybe the doctor made me feel a little uncomfortable or maybe I had a question about that, but they're the professional and they should know when it is really a personal choice, and you want to feel in control, because that affects everything else.

Stephanie: Absolutely. We shouldn't have to bow to white coat syndrome of feeling like they are the authority and I'm not qualified to make decisions about my own birth. But you absolutely should be in the driver's seat of your own birth. It's your body, your baby, your birth, and they are the one providing the service for you. Yes, we acknowledge their wisdom and experience, and yes, they have a medical degree and we don't. So we take their input and then weigh it with our own preferences and decide which is the best course of action.

Maile: Yeah. From my experience, you really want to find someone that you trust. And once you find someone that you trust, then you're like, "Maybe I'll do a little of my own research if I have a question," but it's like you trust them, you trust their experience and everything that they've presented to you so far, and I think that's a really valuable thing for first-time parents to understand, is like, "I need to find that team that I trust going through this whole experience and to be really informed." And not to just go being like, "Hands up. I don't really know what I'm doing." "I'm just here. I'm showing up." And I think it's very overwhelming, especially for first-time parents, being like, "I just had my first baby." And it's an overwhelming decision, it's an overwhelming thing to be like, "I have to all of a sudden make all of these decisions."

Stephanie: "All these choices."

Maile: "I have to do all this research." Thank God we have Google now, because I don't know what women did 50 years ago. What did they do? Like they.

Stephanie: They asked the elders in their village.

Maile: Yes. But I feel like that has kind of dropped off.

Stephanie: Oh, it has. It's so unfortunate.

Maile: And people don't communicate within families and within. There's not those elders. And as I see, it's, that whole community has kind of been shifting. I don't know if you want to talk to me a little bit about the trends that you've been seeing. I know you were in Southern California, now you're up in Redding. But just tell me a little bit about the birthing community and women in general, what kind of those trends that you're seeing are. As far as women becoming. Are they becoming more informed? What's happening?

Stephanie: They are. Praise the Lord. They are. Yes, I think. To speak briefly to that village experience that we've, in many ways, lost. I think one of the reasons why women did birth successfully for so many years is because usually, they would grow up in a village setting, where when a woman had a baby, the women of the village would go into the tent and surround her and be with her. And both the younger women and the older women would be present. The older women would be surrounding her, supporting her.

Maile: That gives me chills a little bit.

Stephanie: I know. Me too. Right? It's like how. It was meant to be that they were using all the herbs and giving her sips of this and that that were good for productive labour, and their presence was grounding and supportive and reassuring her, "These women have all done this before. All these women in this tent with me have done this before, so I know I can too." And even the touch of their hands and arms around her or the support of their bodies behind her, she knew in their company and support that she could do it. And then the younger woman were there to observe, and so they got a chance to watch birth in action and to see other women go before them. And when it was their time, it wasn't this scary unfamiliar thing that they had never been introduced to, except for maybe on like a baby story on TLC.

Maile: Right.

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Stephanie: Which even that is an edited version of labour and birth. And many of the women that I encounter that are most prepared for birth, that are most grounded and confident in their abilities are women that as little girls got to watch their mom have a baby.

Maile: That's interesting.

Stephanie: And we. These days, we shut our kids in the hallway or leave them at home and go to the hospital. And then we come home and it's like, "Where did this come from?"

Maile: Right. Yeah.

Stephanie: "You had this bump for a long time and now we've got this baby. I don't quite understand how that happened."

Maile: Yeah.

Stephanie: And yet young women who say, "You know what, I'm the oldest of seven and I was present when my mom had three of my siblings. So it's not a scary thing to me. I got to watch it happen, and I view birth as normal and natural and healthy, and my mom is strong." And yet so many women these days are robbed of that opportunity because of the way our culture has shifted.

Maile: Right. Worried about the kids being traumatised or there being a distraction or being just a little bit taboo to talk about, inappropriate. And I'm like, "This is a huge part of our lives." It's a emotional and spiritual and physical passage of, almost like coming of age type of thing, and it's something really strong that you go with your whole family. Your whole family gets to experience that, and especially you and your partner and your children if you already have children.

Stephanie: Right. Right. And I think you can be wise about. If you are doing a home birth and you have an opportunity to introduce your little ones to that by walking them into the birth setting, I think it's wise to have the grandmother in the next room too, that she can bring the kids in and out as appropriate, that if mom is struggling with the intensity of the labour, that maybe the little ones can go into the next room at that moment and maybe they can come right back in right after the baby's there and see the baby when the baby's fresh. Or watch from the hallway in the arms of a grandmother or a auntie or somebody who can be whispering in their ear, "This is what mommy's doing right now. Look how strong mommy is. Here comes the baby." And that they can witness from within the safe bounds of the support of the family that can. There are good ways to do it and not so good ways to do it.

Maile: Right. Yes.

Stephanie: But that being said, I think families are starting to come back around to that trend of recognizing we shouldn't remove this experience from our young women, from our daughters. This is something that's beautiful that they should be introduced to from a young age. They don't have to be afraid of it. We shouldn't be afraid of letting them experience it. There are books and talks out there and things of telling young people don't be afraid to do hard things. And yet, if we don't show them the hard things, we're like, "No, no, no. You shouldn't encounter that until you're an adult." Like, no, let them watch the hard things. Let them watch us go through the hard things. And then.

Maile: That's how they learn how to be successful.

Stephanie: Yeah. They'll be more prepared to face it when they've seen somebody else do it as opposed to like, "Gosh, I have no idea how she got through this, but I'll figure it out."

Maile: Yeah. There's a big gap in our education and our knowledge.

Stephanie: Yes. Yeah. And so I think the fact that midwives are coming a little bit more back into Vogue because women are recognizing, "Gosh, I don't have many options in a hospital setting a lot of the time," it's not always true. But many times there is a protocol, there's a way things are done in the hospital, and that can limit the preferences that a woman is allowed to have for her birth. And so recognising I can choose to birth at home with a midwife if I so choose. And that can be a safe thing to do. And possibly even safer for me and my baby based on the birth that I have in mind. And choosing to do so will give my husband more freedom, will give myself more freedom, my partner, our family the options to birth in the way that I prefer and. Yeah, to explore more than what is necessarily presented as the norm. That the norm is shifting. And that there are more and more people that are considering alternatives and options for how to best birth their baby, how to best grow their family, what different models of care are out there. And I know you guys went through a similar journey.

Maile: Yeah. We did Yeah.

Stephanie: Why don't you talk? Lets switch. Let's switch. Why don't you talk about what led you to pursue different options, a different model of care. What led you to hire your amazing doula.

Maile: Well, very nice. Stephanie actually was my doula. So we had this experience and now I love Stephanie I just want her energy around more. This is just my way of doing it. No. But my husband Brandon and I came to Redding and we loved the community. We had initially planned on traveling the US and finding a home and just spending a little bit of time on the road. But we got here and we stayed.

Stephanie: I love that you did.

Maile: And through our video business, we met a lot of different clients and a lot of clients were really awesome people, people that we respected. And then all of a sudden we got pregnant a little bit, maybe six months to a year earlier than we thought. So I hadn't done any planning, I hadn't really thought about it. I was busy. And then everybody that we talked to was like, "Oh, so what do you do? Who are you seeing? What are you doing?" And I was like, "Well, I don't really have a plan. I'm figuring it out." I went, I googled it and I'm figuring it out. I don't really know what I'm doing yet. I mean, I think that you're supposed to see a doctor within the first 13 weeks. And that was it basically. So everybody kept saying like "You might want to see our midwife, we birthed with a midwife," and we kept hearing it from client to client to client. And we were like, "You know what, maybe it's possible that she might have birthed half the town, so let's just check her out. We have some OBs."

Stephanie: I think she may very well have delivered the whole town.

Maile: We have some OBs on our list as well. So let's go interview people and let's figure out what's best for us. So I made some calls. I actually ended up seeing Nora McNeil, who's a local midwife here.

Stephanie: Who?

Maile: Yes. And we met with her and Brandon was sold.

Stephanie: Sold.

Maile: Yes.

Maile: The husband was sold. So I remember telling her in the first interview that I was like, "I don't think that I can do this." I was like, "I don't know anything about this, this is not something that I considered. I'm interested in health and nutrition and all that sort of thing, but I hadn't really gone as far as home birthing," that was new for me.

Stephanie: Something.

Maile: Foreign, right?

Stephanie: Yeah.

Maile: And kind of scary and unacceptable. Like who has their babies outside of the hospital? Isn't the hospital the place that you go all the time? And I didn't have any friends who weren't going to the hospital. I didn't really know anyone. So I had pretty much no reference except for the people that I met in town and. So anyways, we went and we saw Nora and I started to feel a little bit more comfortable and the first thing that she told me was that she was like, "You are completely equipped to do this and women have been doing it for years and you can do it. And it's better for the baby." Brandon and I started doing our research and we were like, "Okay, you know what? We are going to do this." And it's funny because I have a girlfriend who birthed her babies with Nora years ago. Her son is in high school and her daughter is in junior high. And she was like, "This was the most spiritual experience of my life."

Stephanie: Absolutely.

Maile: "And I don't think that I would be the woman that I am today if I didn't go through that experience. I wouldn't be as strong. I don't think my marriage would be as strong." And I was like, that's something that's really profound. That is not something that I've thought about or considered, I've never heard it before.

Stephanie: That birth can be a spiritual experience.

Maile: And she was like, I think she's. I was like, "Man, this woman is very hardcore."

Maile: She's like, "The pain is good." And I was like, "I don't know if I'm still holding. "

Stephanie: Pain is a good.

Maile: And I talked to her more. And she just explained that she was like, "I think that when you try to mask the pain or you try to avoid having those hard experiences, it's like you don't have, it's kind of like assisting a butterfly coming out of their cocoon." It's like you are. You might possibly be not a whole, it's like you're not quite whole, you haven't quite gone through that experience. And I'm not saying. I think there is a time and place for hospital births and medicine births.

Stephanie: Absolutely.

Maile: I think it's a choice for everyone. But at the same time, if you have that option, it's something that does change your mind and it does change your. I think the thing that after the birth was big for me was Brandon who sat down and he was like, "I'm so proud of you." And he was like, "I really. You really went through this and you did great. You did well. And there was no. There was very little point in time where you panicked, you're like, I can't do this."

Stephanie: Right. Only during transition, which is when every woman.

Maile: Overall that it's a really fantastic experience. And then I did also tell him afterwards that I was like "Nora recommended, she always requires a doula."

Stephanie: Yes. For first-time parent.

Maile: To help. Yeah. To help with that emotional transition. And so she can focus on the medical, on the technical side and making sure everything is healthy and the baby's healthy. So that was. I told Brandon, I was like, "I don't think that I could have made it through without Stephanie." I probably could have, but much less gracefully.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Maile: Yeah, that was my experience and that's.

Stephanie: I'm so glad.

Maile: It was profound.

Stephanie: I love being there. It was beautiful. And so many women say that afterwards like, "I don't think I could have done this without you. I don't think I could have done this without my doula, whomever that may be." And the bottom line is they could, they could have.

Maile: Yeah.

Stephanie: And you could have, but it may have been far different experience. It may not have been as graceful, as beautiful, as grounded, as well supported that in those moments of panic that they may have been grasping at straws of "How do I get through this? How. I can't knock this, how can I have this baby?" And then when they look back at their birth, they remember that overwhelming panic. And that fear that never was fully addressed, they just kind of got through it.

Maile: Becomes a scar. Yeah.

Stephanie: Right. A scar as opposed to a trophy.

Maile: Yeah.

Stephanie: And really women should come through that on the other side and be able to have their partners say to them, "That was amazing. I'm so proud of you. You did so beautifully, and you are so strong." And we've talked about this comparison too, about how going through that birth experience is much like climbing Mount Everest and that if you choose a medicated birth or if you are not quite as in control of your birth circumstances and it unravels differently, like you still have that beautiful view at the end.

Maile: Right. Yeah.

Stephanie: Of getting the top of Mount Everest, having that baby in your arms and coming through and saying, "I did it." But it can be like getting dropped off at the top of Mount Everest by helicopter. As opposed to climbing that mountain yourself every step of the way. And that's where we say the pain is beautiful. That in going through and conquering the difficulty of that journey in what feels insurmountable to do it and to make it to the top and to have that mountaintop experience is that many more degrees of an accomplishment. It feels to say, "Oh my goodness, I can't believe I did that. I can't believe I made it to the top of this mountain, and now look at the beauty of what I've done." And to make it to the top and to be dropped off and to just feel like you skipped the difficulty of that journey. Sometimes you're not then equipped with as much confidence for the difficulties that that lie ahead in parenthood and in your marriage and in everything else that you will face. That's where I think that women may be missing out in choosing a medicated birth and in choosing even an elective C-section where. And I'm not saying that they don't have the right to choose the birth if it feels right for them because there are still circumstances where that is the right course and where I support that course of action.

Maile: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Stephanie: But still I feel like women who choose that out of fear of thinking that they can't make it through that birth, they don't know what they might be missing out on.

Maile: Yeah. I think it was. Yeah. It was the hardest thing that I've ever done, which is what I told Brandon, I told my husband afterwards, but it's also the most empowering.

Stephanie: Yes. Absolutely.

Maile: Yeah.

Stephanie: I've never felt closer to God or more alive than when I am bringing my babies into this world. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in any of my lives. Five babies, survived all of them.

Maile: You kept going back, you're like okay, "I'm going to do this again."

Stephanie: I kept going back and doing it again. So it can't be that awful. Clearly if I return to it five times. But it's those experiences that I've drawn from for strength and for confidence and. Yeah. In making my marriage stronger and in making me the mother that I am today to be able to continue to raise five children, to.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: Homeschool five children.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: It's okay, I got through that birth so I can get through to stay. And I do. I look back and I don't regret any of that pain. I don't regret any of that struggle. The hard work it was to bring them into the world. At no point in any of my labours did I say, "I can't do this or I don't want to do this." There were moments where I was like, "Gosh this sucks."

Maile: Yeah.

Stephanie: The hard work of it is a challenge. But the minute that baby is in your arms, you're just. It's overwhelming and beautiful. And so when I get to be a part of that moment in each of my clients, I get the same oxytocin rush as they do. I'm like,"This is why probably I'm a doula." I'm like, "Well, I just, I can't keep having babies. So lemme keep having other people, have babies with them."

Maile: Oh my gosh. As we see the trends changing into women becoming more interested in making their own decisions and having different options for birthing and going. Making their journey into motherhood, are there still challenges as far as they're more traditional hospital models, they're more traditional, do they have trouble with their families? Making such a decision, is it dangerous? Is it painful? Is it scary? Tell me a little bit about that.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that that's exactly what's happening, that there's more of the trend of the expectant families starting to consider their options. But the parents sometimes meet with support, sometimes meet with opposition, even within their own circle. Sometimes it's that all of their friends had their babies in the hospital, and so all of their immediate support system in their community is saying, "You're doing what? You're going to have your baby at home with a midwife. Like, isn't a midwife even qualified to deliver a baby?" Or whatever concerns they've heard that's what they're reiterating to the expecting couple say like, "Okay, well that can't be safe, or well, that can't be good for, or what if something goes wrong?" And those are valid concerns. You want to address those questions.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: And they need to make an informed decision of, "Okay, well these are the circumstances that we feel comfortable with in birthing our baby." Sometimes that opposition comes from family. Maybe the family is of the generation where 80-90% of birth went from delivering at home all to delivering in the hospital. It's like, "Well, no, this is the. " What's the word I'm looking for? Sterile. Yeah. This is a clean, sterile environment where you go to have a baby and this is where it's acceptable to have a baby and doctors deliver babies. And so it's the mom or the grandma or the aunts and uncles that are questioning and maybe even threatening of, "Gosh, you shouldn't make that choice. That doesn't sound safe. If you do that, something's going to go wrong and your baby's not going to be okay."

Stephanie: And it's really hard to ignore those voices.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: That families, when they're considering those choices, those are the people that they want to reinforce their choice to say, "Gosh, that's exciting. That sounds like a beautiful way to have your baby. Can I be there? Or can we come see you after that kind of thing?" And to be supporting the direction that they're going and when they're met with so much fear it can be difficult, but usually that fear stems from lack of knowledge. The fact that home birth is unfamiliar to many people.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: And as they learn more about it, then it starts to become less scary. And I think we even encountered that in our own family. My dad with our. After we had our first, and we were looking to have our second at home, my dad expressed concern because he knew somebody growing up that had had their baby out of the hospital and something had gone wrong. And the baby had ended up with brain damage. And that was the experience he drew from, "This is what I know in my life, this happened." And so when we told him we were considering home birth with a midwife, he said, "Oh, Steph, is that such a wise idea? What if something was wrong? What if this happened? This is the story that I know, what if that happened to your baby?"

Stephanie: And yet he walked through us with that. We held firm with our choice because of the research we had done, and he walked through that pregnancy and birth and in the times we would talk on the phone and the times we'd be together as family, he would ask a few more questions like, "Okay, so how are your midwife visits going?" Or "What is your midwife going to do if this or this comes up?" And I was able to speak to those concerns and I was able to take some of those questions that he asked and ask my midwife, "Okay, so my family member is expressing this concern. What do we do in the instance that like, things don't seem to be going so well on the birth." And then she's able to answer that, "Well, we have safety protocol in place, and if we notice red flags, then we don't hesitate to transfer you so that you can continue your birth in a hospital setting under closer observation and monitoring."

Maile: Which is why I think it's really important for that community to start communicating. And where there's like a breakdown in communication of midwives and hospitals not respecting midwives and vice versa.

Stephanie: Right. Let's work together.

Maile: And I think it's really important because they're both a huge part of it. And the hospital is necessary when it comes to surgery and that sort of thing. But at the same time, if you're having a completely normal experience, then the midwife is perfectly fine and sometimes safer than a hospital because there aren't all the sick people and the germs and the superbugs or whatever.

Stephanie: And a few interventions even.

Maile: Yes. And it's safer for the mom and the baby sometimes, so it's like if we can communicate better, and if we can progress as far as that community goes I think there'll be a lot more success and a lot less fear, a lot less walls put up for people to make those decisions.

Stephanie: Right. And I think, like in our situation, we came through that, and on the other side, my dad said, "Wow, Steph, this was amazing."

Maile: Was he there?

Stephanie: Yeah. He was there right after. Yeah. And just he saw the video.

Maile: Oh, very nice.

Stephanie: He saw the video after. And then it led my sister to, in the birth of her first baby, too choose home birth with the midwife. And because I had kind of paved the way, which as the first born we usually do.

Maile: Very nice.

Stephanie: You're welcome. That my parents were already familiar with the idea and loved it, and that those concerns had been assuaged and that, yeah. It was a welcome, acceptable, normal thing now within our family, and now we all agree as a family like, "Oh yes, home birth." Why would you choose the hospital if you don't have to? And yet I think it's important that every family is free to choose the birth that is right for them. That they're able to birth where they feel safest and most secure. And if that is in a hospital setting, then that's the right birth for them. If it's at home, then that's the right birth for them. If it's under the care of a surgeon, then that's the right birth for them and that their doula can be alongside to support wherever they choose to birth their baby.

Maile: Are hospitals also friendly towards midwives? Can a midwife come to a hospital and hold the mom's hand and kinda provide advice or? It's a weird transition.

Stephanie: It is weird.

Maile: The trends are changing.

Stephanie: They are. They are. And I think that both sides can do their part to meet in the middle and to start to work towards cooperating with one another rather than feeling adversarial, that it doesn't have to feel like competition for business or while you do it way differently than we do, but that it can be a model of cooperation. That's saying you support the clients that are right for that model and we'll support the clients that are right for this model, and if you need to cross over and come to us or if we need to refer people to you that we can do that. And that if a home birth needs to transfer into the hospital for whatever reason, sometimes it's even just that mom's been labouring for 36 hours.

Maile: She's tired.

Stephanie: She's tired, she just wants to go in and get an epidural and sleep for a while so that she can have the strength to push her baby out, but that she still can go in and deliver her baby vaginally. There are many nurses and doctors even at our local hospital that will be receptive and welcoming and supportive that when that mom comes in, that they say, "Oh honey, good job. You've done so much hard work leading up till now. We'll keep taking care of you and we're going to make sure that you still have a great birth and that you have a strong, healthy baby. Let's get you some rest and then we'll have this baby together." And that they welcome the midwife in. They receive that transfer of paperwork, and they say, "Okay, good. These are the records you have leading up until now. Here's her care up until now, okay, I see the water broke at this time. I see this happen at that time. Wonderful. We receive that. Let's work together from here on." The midwife changes roles. She then operates more in a. I'm sorry, in a doula type role.

Maile: Yes. Right.

Stephanie: Where she continues to support and continue to provide information to the new care providers, and then she keeps holding the hand and keeps reassuring the mom saying, "You know what? You have been working really hard. You have done a really good job. That's okay. I've been with you throughout your whole pregnancy. I'm going to keep staying with you now. They're going to be the ones to deliver your baby, but I'm going to be right by your side still." And then everything goes smoothly. The two forms of care provision work hand in hand.

Maile: So we want to see that more. We want to see more.

Stephanie: Right. We do.

Maile: A smoother transition for women who are in those situations.

Stephanie: Right. Because when they operate in cooperation, it just makes the experience that much more positive for the expectant family. Because when there's tension and adversarial relationships, the labouring mom feels that, and it colours her experience in a negative way. Even if she doesn't have to fight against the system, if her midwife and her now nurse or doctor are kind of fighting or at odds with each other, then she feels the weight of that tension. And either she has to deal with it or she has to kind of try to turn a blind eye her ear and let her husband or her doula or somebody deal with it. So they're doing her a favour if they can make that transition seamless.

Maile: Yes. Yes.

Stephanie: Yeah. So that's what we're aiming for on a regular basis when maybe.

Maile: That's good to hear. That's good to hear. I want to see more of it. I want to be a part of pushing that community forward as well. So you always go into battle. You're like, "I want to jump into battle and I'm going to go into these really intense situations," and that's part of what you do on a regular basis. Where. Tell me a little bit about yourself, where you came from, and where your strength comes from and just a little bit about you.

Stephanie: Okay. Oh my! Where shall we begin?

Maile: Page 1, Stephanie Jensen.

Stephanie: I would say as far as where my strength comes from, that's probably the easiest question to start with because it's an easy answer. And it comes from the Lord. That my relationship with Christ and I am a Christian. And even where I draw my skills from my talents, my character and personality and who I am as a doula, the Lord has given that to me.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: It's a gift. It's not something that I went out and developed all on my own.

Maile: Right.

Stephanie: He made me to do this. My name, Stephanie Joy, it means crowned one or crowning joy. And and I use that kinda as my unofficial business name with my personal doula clients. Because I have been crowned with that joy and it's my privilege to be them when they're crowning their little. It's a joke. Get it?

Maile: Oh my gosh. Yes.

Stephanie: And I feel in much like the movie Chariots of Fire when, was it Eric Liddell? Said, when I run I feel God's pleasure.

Maile: Right, Yes.

Stephanie: That's me as a doula. I feel like when I am supporting my clients, when I'm walking with them through that, when I'm at a birth, in all the things that I do as a doula, I feel God's good pleasure. I feel like, yes, I was made for this. And I knew I was going to cry at some point. Both in the beautiful and in the hard things.

Maile: Yeah.

Stephanie: Not every moment of being a doula is golden. There are hard things that you walk through too.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: And there are hard things that you walk through as a mother. There are hard things that you walk through as a woman. Life is beautiful. Brutal and beautiful in all its moments. And those are the moments that I lean heaviest on the Lord. But it's in the moments of joy that I celebrate most with what the Lord has given me. And I know that he has created me for a purpose. That my motherhood has purpose. My service to my husband as his wife has purpose. My friendship with the women and other people in this community has a purpose. And I hope that that's all for God's glory that the ways that I act, the life that I walk in, that it's for his glory and that it leads other people to know him. But I pray even that as I support people as a doula, that I bring joy to their lives. That I make their transition into parenthood easier, more joyful, smoother, more graceful. And that as I train others to be doulas in my work through the Doula Alliance, as I take these new little baby doulas under my wing and teach them to do what I love and pass that knowledge along, that I can do that with grace and with joy and ideally shepherd them into their full potential as towards to be the tools that they're meant to be. Does that answer your question?

Maile: It does. What you do is not just about the moment. It's not just about this, it's about successfully bringing in the next generation. And I think, if the babies can be brought in with strength, and peace and love and not fear and panic. And. It's really. You're kind of like, you're at the doorway helping women, helping the next generation new life come in. And that's something that's really powerful.

Stephanie: It is.

Maile: And so I think that there's such a presence of like you being able to model that sort of like the motherhood and grace. And just ushering in just such new hope and new life. And that's really powerful.

Stephanie: Thank you.

Maile: I don't know, I get really excited about that. I think it's like something that's really. We're bringing in the next generation, and that's something that's really huge. And, I think it's something that is really important to invest into the children. And as you were talking about, you're also a mom. Tell me a little bit about your family How many kids do you have?

Stephanie: I have five kids and they are, 10, eight, five, three and one and a half. We're coming up on all those next birthdays. So I'm like, they're going to be 11, nine.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: Six, four, two.

Maile: That's a handful.

Stephanie: Yes. It is a handful. A quiver full.

Maile: Yes. Yes.

Stephanie: My hands and my heart are full. And I think it's important to emphasise here, that it's easy to put women on a pedestal when you think they're doing it all. And I. In this, I don't want other women out there to be like, "Gosh, How is she? She's homeschooling? Running a business? Supporting doula clients? Being a mom? All of that?" And it's like, You know what? There are many days that I spend in tears with my hair and a greasy ponytail, sweatpants on, feeding my kids cereal for dinner because that's all I could manage for that day. And then it's not.

Maile: Because you see the Instagram model, you see people on Facebook and their pictures are perfect. And the kids are perfectly dressed and like.

Stephanie: I'm like, "You know what?"

Maile: Everything's staged.

Stephanie: Yeah. Most of the time it doesn't look like that. Like even today I'm like, "I got to wash my hair."

Maile: There's a big mom movement, and the mom movement looks perfect. Right?

Stephanie: It does.

Maile: And then, there. But you do hear the stories that it's challenging. And it's okay to cry and it's okay to have tough days. So tell me a little bit about how you get through those days and what. I don't know, a little bit of your experience.

Stephanie: Yes. Yeah, like we had a challenging day yesterday, even. Where there were tears shed by multiple people, not just me.

Maile: Oh, no.

Stephanie: And yet we also had bright moments in that we managed to get the homeschool work done and we managed to get the living room all tidied up by the end of the day. And we actually had a good dinner, nutritious dinner that was served. My husband helped with that, like, he made, the steak and the green beans and I just put on the pot of rice. And that was that. And when we got to 5:30 and had checked off our to-do list miraculously for that day, even though there were some head-to-head moments of mom versus child. And, yeah, there were challenges along the way, we got to 5:30 and I said, "You know what? We're going to break out the bubbly juice and everybody's going to get a coach.

Maile: Very nice.

Stephanie: We're going to put on some dude Perfect. And sit on the couch. And the things that my kids are into these days, And we're going to prop our feet up while the rice is cooking and celebrate that we made it through this day. And sometimes it's just about celebrating those small victories. That, know the day wasn't perfect, but my kids left and my baby sat in my lap and nursed while I did a lesson with one of the boy.

Maile: Multitasking always.

Stephanie: Yes. Multitasking at its best. It's like, sure, I'll open this wrapper for you and I'll nurse this baby and I'll correct them last time. And it's like, yeah, but it happened with me and my sweatpants and my hair in a ponytail. And it's like, no, I did not have a pie baking at the same time. And I was not perfectly made up at the same time. And Yeah. And I snuck in that really quick text to respond to a client's question about, "Is this normal during pregnancy?" You just kind of fit it in, but it doesn't mean that it all happens perfectly. It doesn't mean that you don't make mistakes along the way. It doesn't mean that there aren't ups and downs. Not every day is perfect, but you have the hard moments. And then the Lord gives us grace to give us those beautiful moments that say, "Okay, this is what makes it all worth it." And this is what's saying, "You may not feel like you're doing a perfect job, but you're doing hard work. And you're doing it beautifully. And his grace is sufficient for you in those moments when you're not". Yeah. That's what I draw on.

Maile: I think, gosh, I hear it so often, especially when I lived in the city and, also with, different friends that I've known is, Why would you choose to stay at home and have kids? And why is it worth it? And I think that's something that women, are dealing with a lot now. I think there's a trend towards motherhood. And, but I also think that there's, the tough transition between, I spent all this money on college, and I have a career, and like, why would I pause that and.

Maile: I think that we're kind of, we're in a shifting kind of transitionary period of, we're kind of seeing more families modeling that, but, How do you balance? How do you balance motherhood? And how do you. What do you. What is your motivation as far as like being a mother? And I mean, from my perspective, it's like I thought that I was going to be able to work, part-time In the first year, I'm like, I'm breastfeeding I'm like, yeah, but, he's going to go down and then I'm going to do some during those two, three hours work, like send off emails to clients. And, when it came to reality, I was like, I'm so tired.

Maile: I spend a lot all this time, spending time with him. And sometimes I think women are afraid of that, especially moms who are first time moms and they're just like, I'm going to give up everything to do this. But at the same time, it's something that's so necessary of like, making sure the kids are raised by their families. So they have input not just being sent off to daycare where they don't get that one-on-one attention all the time. That's not. It's not bad sometimes. It's like everybody has to make their own decisions, but at the same time, I think there is that fear for, Why would I have kids? It's going to interrupt my life. So I don't know if that's something that you have an answer for, but if you want to talk a little bit about it, that's something that I've been really thinking about that's really interesting to me.

Stephanie: I don't think I have the perfect answer for it, but I do agree with you that, Why would I have my kids if I'm then just going to work all full-time.

Maile: Yeah.

Stephanie: And pay somebody else to raise them for me.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: That, even though it requires a tremendous amount of sacrifice. On my part to be with them and to pour into them when, many times motherhood could feel like they're sucking the life out of me. I didn't sleep, I didn't eat. Didn't sleep. I had like five cups of coffee.

Maile: Poured myself some water, but they drank it.

Stephanie: Yeah. So it's like, yeah. Many times you just feel like parenthood is a death to self. In so many ways and I think what I struggle with is that our culture can view that as a bad thing. That it's like, "Okay, well gosh, no, you can't lose yourself and you're parent by all means, you still need to go and do the things that matter to you." It's like, "Yes, there is that."

Maile: But this is what matters to me.

Stephanie: This is what matters to me. And there needs to be a balance of that, of in many ways we can stand to be a lot less selfish.

Maile: Yeah.

Stephanie: That, that there are certain things that it's like, you know what, it's probably healthy for me if I do let go of a little bit of this, but do let go of a little bit of that, that maybe I don't need to spend quite so much time on just my things, that it's okay to pour of my self into my children. Yes. There has to be a balance of self-care.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: Yes, you have to put on your own oxygen mask for sometimes before you assist your children. And yes, sometimes it's okay to say, "I am going to close this bathroom door and lock it for the next five minutes," and go to the bathroom by myself instead of having a toddler in my lap or kids asking for me for snacks while I'm in the bathroom.

Maile: So does it get easier when you have. I've been thinking about this because I have one and he's always with me.

Stephanie: Yes.

Maile: But does it get easier when you have older kids, like, do they feed the little one sometimes? Do they read him a book.

Stephanie: Yes.

Maile: Or read her a book? It's like, does it get a little bit easier? I know you have your hands more full.

Stephanie: Yes.

Maile: But at the same time, it's like sometimes when you have another one or you have another two. How does it go?

Stephanie: Yeah. I would say it does. I would say yes, you have more people that you have to tend to, more mouths that you have to feed, and more tasks associated with that, but your baby also has a playmate. And that there are many times, and I think that's one thing that allows me to multitask in the way that I do, where maybe I'm making the sandwiches for lunch, but I say, okay, you get up the carrots and you slice up the cucumbers. And you open that string cheese for the baby so that she's tied it over until I make the rest of the food. And that we work together, that your family unit becomes a team and that mom doesn't do all the chores either. That it's like, okay, you know what, yesterday in the cleanup, if I had had to clean up my house at the stage that it was at, it would've taken me an hour and a half to two hours probably. But I banded together my little army.

Joey: And said, okay, you pull out the vacuum, you pull out the dust buster to climb underneath the table. You pick up all those toys. And we were each assigned our tasks, and within probably 25 to 30 minutes, that house was stick and span. And I couldn't have done that by myself.

Maile: And it teaches responsibility.

Stephanie: It teaches them responsibility. They're learning that I eat of the privileges of this home. I enjoy the meals that are made for me. I enjoy the roof over my house and the clothes that are given to me. And this is the role that I can play in helping to maintain this home and help me to support the family life that we live. That I can help make the food, I'm five, but I've got a great little child safe knife that I can use to slice the kidney out.

Stephanie: And we'd start to teach them those things from a young age, and that's what makes it doable. Yeah. That when you equip them with a role to play, and that makes them much more secure too in their confidence of, "Oh, I may only be five, but I matter to this family. I'm important too, and I have a part to play. Mom needs me to do this too. My sister needs me to comfort her." My darlings have, have climbed into each other's cribs and beds at times when it's like, "I can't be at every place at one time." I'm like, "Okay, I'll snuggle the baby.’

Maile: Oh, that's cute.

Stephanie: I find you. I was like, hold up shirt and be like, "Oh my, my gosh. I'm like."

Maile: Okay, well honey, you don't, that doesn't work. No.

Stephanie: But like, but thanks for trying. It's a great thought.

Maile: Yes. Thanks for trying.

Stephanie: Yes. So just like those moments of sweetness where it is the big brother sitting in with the, in the rocking chair with the little one and pulling out a book and saying, this is her favorite book. I can read it to her while mom's doing this or that while mom's getting that other one out of the bath, that we can work cooperatively and that it's ideally teaching them great skills for the future. That even operating that way within our home is going to equip them in their jobs in the future.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: Or in their schoolwork in the future, whether they go to college or whether they learn a trade, whether, whether my daughters decide that they want to be doulas or mommies in the future, or if they decide that they want to pursue something else. That they'll know, "Okay, well, I can do those hard things and I can learn something new and, and I'm capable of playing an important part."

Maile: I think the biggest thing for me was realizing that, oh wow, I can't live life as I did before. I don't have a fraction of the time that I used to have. But in 10 years he's not going to want to cuddle. He's not going to want to sit down and read a book with me. He's going to be more independent. He's going to be doing his own thing. He's going to have his own friends. He's going to be doing schoolwork and he's not going to have time to play. And so as I think about it it's like it's only a small period of your life where you are responsible. You have this huge responsibility. And as soon as I saw him I was like I want to spend my time with him. I don't want to go hand him off to a nanny or hand him off to somebody else. I honestly don't trust anybody else because I love him and he's my first one and I'm really overprotective so at the same time I think that I would say that whatever women choose to do I think that this is not something that's unimportant and it's not something that "Oh I'm just a stay at home mom." It's I am raising capable human beings. And it takes a lot of work to instill what you were talking about which is responsibility and learning how to appreciate being a part of the family and taking initiative to help lead the younger ones. And I think that's something that we don't see it's. Even adults in society they're not really taught self responsibility.

Maile: It's like oh well I'm going to go to college and then I'm going to party all the time. And then maybe you just get a job after college with your degree. It's fine. And then you get there and you're like, "Whoa I have to do this all myself. Is somebody there to help me?" And then I think. And not to make a generalization but I do see that we're having a big lack in society of people who know how to be independent. And who know how to build their own business, how to succeed. And that's the point is to be self-sufficient, to take pride in what you do, to make money, to raise your own family, to do whatever you decide to do but be fearless about it. And to have that sort of mental process where you're like "I can solve problems it's no problem. I can do it." And I think that's something that I've been interested in is while I was homeschooled and I would love to talk about.

Stephanie: I don't think I knew that about you.

Maile: Yeah. I was homeschooled all the way through and then I went to college. So I was homeschooled from elementary to high school and I learned to read really early and I had a huge love for books and my mom was there the whole way through.

Stephanie: We need to come back and have a whole other separate episode.

Maile: I know Brandon wanted me to touch on this. He's like talk about homeschooling. I love talking about it. So we we decided to homeschool. I know.

Stephanie: That's great.

Maile: Sometimes it can be difficult with all the little legal loopholes you have to jump through. I haven't homeschooled in California so we're going to experience this.

Stephanie: Cross that bridge when you come to it. There are lots of good options if you're ready.

Maile: Yes. Yes. But that's a personal decision for everybody but I think I really want to be a big part of my kids' lives my son's life.

Stephanie: Their education and development.

Maile: His education and.

Stephanie: Character development.

Maile: And I remember going to college when I went to. I did a private college and then I went back to public college and did University, State University. And they were re-teaching basic English, basic grammar in upper level classes and I remember sitting there and just being like why are we going over things that I learned in junior high.

Stephanie: Or even sooner?

Maile: Were the kids not learning or are they not paying attention or are they not getting individualised attention? Whatever that may be. And I was just I really want. I want to raise a generation that's capable that can think for themselves. That can argue for their own beliefs whatever that may be. Argue philosophy, learn philosophy, learn how to make a point, learn how to hold their own. And also learn history and science and not only learn those things but to have hunger for learning and not being "Oh man I have to go to school then I have all this homework. And I don't get to play," because when I was homeschooling if I was motivated I could do my work in four or five hours. I went surfing, I went hiking I went to hung out with my friends I wasn't. I didn't have to just stay here and do this.

Stephanie: Oh dear. No.

Maile: And then have homework and then be like it's 8:00 o'clock at night and I'm like "Oh maybe I'm going to sit and watch TV or. "

Stephanie: For an hour.

Maile: Things like that. And I want. I think that kids get. Especially boys I think they get a little bit bored in that model of like "Oh I just need to sit and study." So. Yeah that's kind of my view. I haven't obviously started homeschooling yet. My son's pretty young. But that's kind of. That was my experience when I was growing up and I really loved it. Everybody talks about the social aspect. So tell me a little bit about your experience. I think the socialisation is not really a problem. I think that as parents your kids don't just experience kids their own age which is what you would do in school and I thought that was something that was really powerful. I argued for years with Brandon when we were first dating of like "Oh I really like to at least do private school but I prefer to homeschool because you not only interact with kids your own age but you interact with adults, you interact with college kids, you interact with younger children." And it's not limited it's whatever the parents take responsibility to go out and say, "Hey let's go hang out with these people. Let's go do this, let's go to this conference, let's go do a business conference." We can do whatever. And I see other people do that.

Stephanie: It makes you even travel.

Maile: Yes. You can travel. You can kind of do whatever you want as long there is still learning. So tell me a little bit about you decision to homeschooling and your experiences so far.

Stephanie: Yeah. I think the socialisation is often people's primary objection. Like, "Oh if you're keeping your kids home to homeschool aren't you worried about them being socialised?" And I agree with you completely that I think actually the current public school model that is most common does not give the most beneficial form of socialisation because they spend the majority of their time when you look at the hours per week that they're spending in school surrounded by a group of their peers that are all the same age. And it's like at what other point in your life are you only going to be with 30 12-year-olds?

Maile: It just doesn't happen.

Stephanie: It doesn't happen.

Maile: Once you grow up.

Stephanie: I know. You get that brief bubble in college but even then you're with younger and older students and everything. And so it it might not really be the most ideal model for our kids to spend so many formative years in groups of isolated age groups of only being with nine-year olds only be with 10-year-olds. That in the homeschool model that for one they're usually not locked up in their own little house with their own little family never going anywhere never doing anything with anybody else. But that there are co-ops where you're meeting with other families and there are charters where they can have a mix which is what we do. A mix of on-campus class time coupled with home time, homeschool instruction time. And they're getting kind of a balance in the best of both worlds. But that time that they spend in classes might be in a group of nine to 12 classmates as opposed to 30 to 35 classmates. And those are more enrichment times than they are their primary lesson instruction time. And they're able to take electives where they're doing their core subjects at home but then they're going and taking ceramics or Lego robotics or a foreign language or gymnastics and that we're.

Maile: And more time for that. Yeah.

Stephanie: More time. And then even our homeschool instruction time is is filtered with playing out in the driveway with chalk. And their PEs is like "Okay great let's get out the bikes and the scooters and and spend an hour out in the sunshine riding around the cul-de-sac. And then we'll come in and do math. And then we'll go eat our lunch in a picnic in the backyard and then we'll come back and do language arts."

Maile: Yes. I remember growing up it's my mom we would do PE and we would go swim in the ocean. And then we would go look at the fish.

Stephanie: That's PE.

Maile: And we'd be like, "Oh look at all the fish."

Stephanie: Science.

Maile: And then and then we would find a fish that washed up on the beach and she'd be like "Let's go dissect that fish." I was not excited about that but but it's kind of it flows a little seamlessly sometimes. It's like when you get to go out and you have a little bit more time to explore.

Stephanie: Yeah. And the fact that you can even adapt and adjust your lesson for that day based on what life throws your way. That it's okay what actually we ran outta groceries and we really need to fit that errand in today. But what here's an op-ed for you and here's an op-ed for you. I want you to write down every single item that we're buying. As we go through the store and I need you to give me a tally of what the total will be at the end. Calculate the tax. And let's see who gets the closest to to figuring out the right total at the end. And and even that okay according to our budget this month do we have room to get those extra granola bars that you want to get.

Maile: Or is this brand cheaper than this brand? What are the ingredients to this.

Stephanie: Right. Let's do cost-benefit. Yes, let's talk and see which ones were. There's so many lessons available even in just the day-to-day things that we do as a family. And the fact that that can count as their education and that that flows into shaping their learning maybe even better than sitting and doing a math worksheet that like "yes they still need how to learn to calculate fractions. And yes there are times when you have to sit down and be in the book."

Maile: Practical applications are so powerful in addition to those to the book learning.

Stephanie: Because the two can go hand in hand. Yeah. And and that they can learn to be comfortable to hold a conversation with an adult in addition to playing with their peer. That that they can interact with an older college aged student and they can also play with a baby and and not know as opposed to not knowing how to handle a child that's several years younger than them. Or when an adult is in the room all of a sudden they're I don't know how to speak to that person. That they're given the confidence to relate on many different levels and that we the parents who birthed them and are raising them are the ones that are the primary influencers in their life. I want them to have time with peers, I want them to have social interaction but I want to be the one who speaks most firmly and most consistently into their character development.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: I want to influence their beliefs, I want to shape what they learn and how they learn. And yes. That's a lot of work. It's a lot of work on my part and I need help. I also don't want to bear that burden by myself. That yes we the parents make those choices for them but then that I say what I can't do this all on my own. I'm going to bring somebody in one day a week to help me with the little ones that I bring in a mother's helper to come and help me play with the the toddler and the baby with preschool appropriate age activities.

Maile: So where.

Stephanie: Or grandmother can I borrow your mom? Yeah.

Maile: So where in Redding is there. Are there groups are there families? Are there other moms that you meet with? How's the homeschooling community here?

Stephanie: It's actually really good. There are actually a lot of good options. There's a homeschool support page on Facebook where they have park play dates. They'll post okay play did park this Friday. And it's like all of us will meet and maybe we've already done our lessons for that morning and so we're all coming out to play. Or maybe that is our lesson for that morning. Is the the park play time and maybe we'll even have an obstacle course or something that we'll create for the kids or whatever. But then while the kids are playing, the moms get to commiserate and be like "Okay so I'm facing this difficulty in this subject.

Stephanie: And we're able to say "Oh I dealt with that with my son last year. This is what we did this is how we handled it." Or even if we're not problem solving we're commiserating and saying like "Gosh this is tough. And gosh we've had a rough week." And like "Oh you too. Oh I'm not alone. Okay."

Maile: Sometimes you feel alone. Right?

Stephanie: You do.

Maile: It's sometimes you're home a lot just depending on the chaos of the day and it feels "oh I don't know anyone else who's gone through this experience." So it's really important to have that community to build those friendships especially building friendships with families that you trust around your children.

Stephanie: That are like-minded and. It really does take a village to raise our children. And we are so isolated and some fellow mom friends and I were talking just the other day about about how at this day and age moms, women are expected to do more by themselves than at any other stage in history.

Maile: That's interesting.

Stephanie: As far as we're not meeting at the river to wash our clothes and gather our water and everything together. We're Self-sufficient home all the time. There with our washing machine and our dryer folding our laundry and everything and fixing our meals and cleaning our floors and all that, all by ourselves all the time when we used to do it together as a village.

Maile: That's interesting.

Stephanie: And we wonder why women feel so isolated and lonely and discouraged and depressed and that they're incapable. It's like "Why is this so hard to do? Why am I not making it through all of my tasks?" It's like "Well because one woman used to watch the young children while the other one went and gathered the grain from the field or and then the other one checked out the water time."

Stephanie: And that you didn't have to do it all all by yourself. And so I think the more that we can start to do more together, the more that we can create homeschool co-ops where it's what let's meet together one or two days a week and you'll teach this subject and I'll teach that one. Or they'll watch the little ones and we'll teach the bigger ones and then we'll have our lunch together and it's a potluck meal so that I only have to bring the crackers and the cheese. And you bring the veggie slices. It's like all those little things. Right. They seem so little and yet when you add them up throughout the week the fact that you're sharing one another's burdens you're not shouldering it all by yourself. It makes life more doable.

Stephanie: And so living together in community being in in a community here in Redding where we've got charter schools, we've got co-ops, we've got charters where you can meet on campus like Stellar where we are a part of where we've got Tuesday, Thursday we go on campus and Monday, Wednesday, Friday we work from home.

Maile: Oh wow.

Stephanie: Other Stellars that. I'm sorry other charters New Day that doesn't meet on site but that has enrichment courses available offered at different times and offers a higher vendor stipend that gives the families money that they can then use on a monthly basis for each student to pay for activities like rock climbing or ceramics or ballet or to pay for that math tutor that they need so that mom has one subject that she can get help with. There are resources out there. And to be encouraged that our community not only offers those resources but that we want to be there for one another and that we want to reassure each other. You're not in this alone and you're not the only one struggling. Don't be so hard on yourself because this is hard for everyone. Because sometimes it's even just that, it's just feeling crippled by "I am the only one that's having a hard time with this, everybody else is doing this well."

Maile: And becomes tunnel vision a little bit. Where you're like "Oh I'm just here and I'm the only one in it." But then if you look out there is I think everybody else is silently struggling with the same thing.

Stephanie: Right. They're silently struggling. And and when we speak up and say "I'm having a hard time with this too," then even just feeling not alone makes you feel you can draw strength for another day. And feeling connected instead of isolated. We were created for relationship. We were not created to do life in our own little house with our walls up all by our lonely selves. It's like "No no no. Reach out. Get connected. Do life. "

Maile: That's really important.

Stephanie: It is.

Maile: One thing that I love about Redding is that it really does have that where it's you can go you. You talk to your neighbors you talk to somebody down the street. I remember I was living in LA for a while. And when you pass someone you would keep your eyes down you would look the other way. And here most often everybody's waving. They're like "How are you doing? Oh your baby's really cute." Or "what kind of dog is that?"

Stephanie: Yes.

Maile: It's people have conversations and I've been standing on the Sundial Bridge and people come up to you and they're like "oh isn't this a great view?" And then they talk about the fire or whatever is happening in the community or their personal experiences. And that's kind of one of the reasons why I love Redding and I love talking about Redding because it's different. It's a little bit slower paced. I mean I spent a lot of time I lived in Vegas I lived in LA. My husband works in San Francisco so we go to the bay quite often. And it's a different kind of life here where it's a little bit dare I say it's slightly more old fashioned.

Stephanie: Yes.

Maile: But and it doesn't have it doesn't have a nightlife or it doesn't have a lot of theater. It has some theater.

Stephanie: Some. Mm-hmm.

Maile: Yes. But at the same time it's like you're so close to nature. There's pretty much everything you could want here to to go and adventure and at heart I'm like I like adventure. I'm like hiking and camping and I want to.

Stephanie: Be out in nature.

Maile: Yes. And there's so much that you can do. And kids love that.

Stephanie: Yes.

Maile: And you were in living in southern California, right?

Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

Maile: So you recently kind of recently.

Stephanie: Has been or approaching the seven year mark.

Maile: Okay. So how was that? What brought you to Redding and what's the difference? What do you see?

Stephanie: It was a transition in. Like you said we missed the culture.

Maile: Yes. A little bit. Yeah.

Stephanie: Even quality Thai food. Being somebody who lived in the mission field when I was younger and knows.

Maile: In Thailand?

Stephanie: In Thailand. And know authentic Thai food when you taste it. You can get that really easily in LA but in Redding it's really hard to find authentic Thai food.

Maile: Interesting.

Stephanie: But weighing the pros and cons and weighing what you sacrifice it versus what you get. And we were looking for a transition towards more family-centered lifestyle. Towards less entertainment based more family activity based being able to easily get to hikes, picnics, all of that. And even to be able to own a home. In LA, it was.

Maile: 700,000, 800,000.

Stephanie: Oh. Easily.

Maile: Or above.

Stephanie: Easily for.

Maile: Small house.

Stephanie: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And we were paying the same amount for rent down there for a tiny little two-bedroom apartment as as we were when we moved up and bought a four-bedroom house. Actually our mortgage was less than our rent down there. And so.

Maile: Quality of life. It's huge.

Stephanie: Quality of life. The affordability of living up here and and the fact that we could do that and that I could stay home, I could afford to stay home with our kids and and own a home and have my husband working at a decent job and then staying home and being with our kids and homeschooling them and everything. And even having more than 2.5 children, which in southern California there's.

Maile: You can't fit them.

Stephanie: You can't fit them, you can't afford them.

Stephanie: Right. And so up here and and immediately being able to be we can continue to grow our family which we did went from two to three, four, five. Oh my! But we've loved being up here, being so close to Lassen, Shingletown, being able to. I'm sorry, Whiskeytown, and being able to get to the lake and everything, and, yeah, all of that. We've so loved that. And even, the fact that organic produce, with the Farmers Market, all those things are really easily accessible. Orchard, we've got so many great stores here. We frequently run up to our little holiday and just grab little things from the market up there that we need. So it's conducive to the kind of life that we want to live, and supportive of our homeschool choices. Yeah, we do sacrifice some of the theater and that kind of thing, but it's like when we want to, San Francisco's not that far away.

Maile: It's close, it's close enough.

Stephanie: You can go and see plays when you want to, and even the things that are offered here in the community theater, there's the Cascade, there's. My daughter takes ballet lessons at Redding Arts Project. There are those resources if you look at them, and they can continue to grow and improve the more we pour into them.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: It's like, yes, let the talent come here and let them grow our theater and our dance and all the different aspects that are offered here.

Maile: So I think one of the things that I found was, people have different experiences, people have different views here, but it's okay to talk about, it's okay to discuss. It's not like, "Oh, why don't we don't talk about that? It's very hush hush."

Stephanie: Right, right.

Maile: And it was a little bit strange, I think, when I was living down in LA where it's like you don't talk about things. You're like, you talk about movies, you talk about light, light things.

Stephanie: The restaurant you just went to, the show you just saw and.

Maile: And I like to get in deep, I like to talk about philosophy, I like to talk about difficult life choices and all that stuff without being like, oh, immediately like, "Oh, that's not what we do."

Stephanie: That's not fun. That's not fun to talk about.

Maile: And I don't care if people have different experiences or different views. I just like. I want to talk about it and I want to get into it. So that's kind of something that I love about Redding. Is like, we do have a lot of different people who think a lot of different things, and I want to hear those things. And I don't want to be afraid to talk about it or feel like, we need to be politically correct or whatever, I want to hear, I want to hear about that.

Stephanie: And I think, so I think this actually did touch upon your last question, like what resource is available, how to get connected, that kind of thing. And so this may open up a whole other topic, which maybe we'll come back to. I love my gym. I absolutely love going to the Y.

Maile: Oh, okay.

Stephanie: Yeah. Very nice. The Chester Family, YMCA, like in LA, you don't go to the Y.

Maile: Right, it's a sketchy place to visit in LA.

Stephanie: It is. And here in Redding, actually, our first few years, I never went to the YMCA because I had this whole preconception about like, "Why would I ever want to go to the Y?" And yet, here in Redding, it's a wonderful place to find community, to get connected, to find encouragement. There are so many resources that are offered there. And for me, it's one of my big mommy outlets. Like to get up at 5:00 o'clock in the morning before my children are awake.

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: Go to the gym. Release some stress, burn off some frustration, release some endorphins.

Maile: Feel a lot better when you go home, yeah.

Stephanie: Connect with people. I know some people like to exercise on their own, they like to go run the trails and do hikes and that kind of thing, and maybe wake up early and work out in the comfort of their living room. For me, being an extrovert, I want to go be with people. And big people that I can have adult conversations with because I'm with little people all day long. And so going and being with those people that I've built relationships with, I have my classes that I do, that we see each other, four to five mornings a week or more, and those are the people that I draw encouragement from and that I pour encouragement into. And maybe we're only together for an hour or less or a little more, as we work out, strengthen our bodies, build our health, stretch, relieve our muscles before we enter into the work of that day. But it's become a huge source of encouragement for me and very life-giving.

Maile: Right.

Stephanie: And there are times, like, when we were evacuated during the fire, and dealing with being out of our home, and just the fear and worry of those days, one of my biggest things was. I mean, yes, we were connected with our church community and our church family put on a potluck and we drew encouragement from that for sure, and went first to prayer and to the Lord. But probably the second on my list was like, "I miss the gym. I miss. "

Maile: So mom's at the YMCA.

Stephanie: Yes.

Maile: It's the source. It's funny, my mom just joined the YMCA and she's enjoying it, and Brandon's like, "You should go too."

Stephanie: You should. Now we're both going to drag on and be like, "Maile. "

Maile: I'm one of those solo hikers. I'm like, "Oh, I'm just going to go, peace, quiet."

Stephanie: Yes.

Maile: "Relaxation."

Stephanie: Yes.

Maile: But I also, I also want more community.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Maile: That's interesting.

Stephanie: Yeah. And there are so many different choices for class styles, there for like, what people want. Yeah, what different kind of exercise they want to try. There are swim classes, there's cycling. There's HIFT and HIIT, there's yoga, and there's more slow pace yoga, and then there's booty yoga, which is. Which by the way, again, side note, expectant women need to try booty yoga. It gets them back.

Maile: So it's safe for them.

Stephanie: It's wonderful.

Maile: Really?

Stephanie: For both prenatal and postpartum recovery period, because it's about core strengthening.

Maile: Oh, right.

Stephanie: It's about instinctual movement, that women have gotten away from, recognizing that their bodies can move in a way in labour that's good for birth, that's good for easing their baby into this world. So strengthening the pelvic floor, developing a stronger awareness of the pelvic floor muscles. The way the hips move, the way the core moves, all these different things, it's set to this drum music, so it's enjoyable to do.

Maile: It's fun. You're like, it's more. You get into it.

Stephanie: It's almost like a dance yoga class. And it's so beautifully taught and it's just fun and yet instructive, at the same time. Yeah. And so yeah, just such a plethora of choices there.

Maile: And then from what I understand they also do prenatal yoga.

Stephanie: They do prenatal yoga too.

Maile: To the community for free.

Stephanie: Yeah. That one's for free.

Maile: Yeah.

Stephanie: Yes, so. The prenatal comes particularly for free. So that's a great source for expecting mothers. Yep. And the breath control.

Maile: We're plugging the Y. Okay guys.

Stephanie: I know, right?

Maile: This has become about the Y instead of. You're welcome.

Stephanie: Yes. So it pours into who I am, and the strength that I have, and even the confidence that I've developed, in strengthening my own body, in bouncing back in health and wellness, after having five babies, that takes a lot out of you.

Maile: It does.

Stephanie: But taking some time in my schedule to say, "You know what, I need to be stronger, I need to be healthier, I need to be fit, so that I can keep up with these kids." This improves my mental state, and my physical state, my emotional state.

Maile: Right.

Stephanie: By getting and having this outlet that it's beneficial for my health and wellness. It equips me to make it through my day. So I've thought about, I'm like, "We need to create a Y promotion and be like, 'what is your Y?'"

Maile: Right.

Stephanie: "This is my Y," You're like, "I lift here so that I can lift here. Hoist that three-year-old into the air." It's like, "Well, it's a good thing. "

Maile: And I did mine together.

Stephanie: "Worked my biceps this morning."

Maile: So as we, I think, we're getting close to wrapping up here. Do you have any, as a mom, as someone who has her hands full all the time, but as, also, as you run your own business, do you have any tips for parents or moms in general as far as like balancing that sort of life and staying sane.

Stephanie: Staying sane. Yes.

Maile: Yeah. And then also making sure that you carve out that time for yourself, which I think is very important?

Stephanie: Yeah. I think it's very important not to do it alone, to get connected with your community, for us it is our church community that is foundational. But then also the friendships, like MOPS, is a wonderful resource here in town, especially for new moms, which is, it stands for Mothers of Preschoolers, if you're not familiar with it, where they can just go and not feel alone, they're not the only one with spit up on their shoulder. They're not the only one with.

Maile: Yeah, right.

Stephanie: A mountain of laundry at home.

Maile: Yeah.

Stephanie: Yeah, to not feel isolated, to feel connected. And as you're trying to balance everything, whether it be just being at home, or fitting in a part-time business, on the side, that you don't try to do it alone. That you pull in help, where you need it, and that it's not a sign of weakness if you do need help, that you can't do it all by yourself, that you say, "Okay, I do need to find a kindly grandmother who can come over one or two mornings a week and. " Bless you, "and help hold my baby," or juggle this or that or that it's like, "You know what? We need to find room in the budget to pay a housekeeper, just once a month to come and scrub the bathtubs." That you recognize your strengths and weaknesses, and that you don't just look at Pinterest and Facebook and think, "They're doing it all. I have to do it all too, and if I don't, I'm a failure." That it's easy for us to give into that lie of believing that somehow we're failing and somehow we're not enough, and somehow we're not worthy, when we've been created for the tasks that have been set before us.

Maile: It's like there's so much you can do on your own, and that's great, everything that you can do, but then, and it's like, you only stand out from all the other people who are going in on their own by the strength of the community around you, which I think is really important.

Stephanie: Absolutely.

Maile: So, on that note what about. How can. Let me just start over so we can cut. How can people find you on the Doula Alliance? I know you're a personal doula, and that's separate from the Doula Alliance where you train potential and new doulas. So just tell me a little bit about how people can find you and a little advice for either new parents or also parents who are looking to have more options.

Stephanie: As far as resources that are online, we do have a Facebook page, we have an Instagram account, and the website itself. And we try to put as many resources out there as possible for both training doulas and new and expectant parents. I've created a series called Pregnancy Homework Series. I've done little things called like The Sacrum Series, because many women deal with sacrum pain during their pregnancy, just little things like that that I've tried to put snippets out there, on our social media feed where people can find it. If they're looking to hire a doula, on our.

Maile: Just a. So that was at the what? At the doulaalliance.com.

Stephanie: Yes.

Maile: Where can they find you?

Stephanie: Www.doulaalliance.com, and then Doula Alliance on Instagram, and Doula Alliance on Facebook.

Maile: Okay, perfect.

Stephanie: Yes. And on the Doula Alliance page, for new and expecting parents, that are looking for a doula, we do have a Meet The Doula section.

Maile: Oh, nice.

Stephanie: And that has video interviews where they can, just get a brief snippet, a view into what is this doula like, it's so important to find the doula who's right for you, to be able to get a brief little look into what that person is like, who they are as a doula, what they're about, and have little write-ups on the doulas that are within our network. And we have doulas in other areas as well. In Sonoma, in Southern California, in Washington, there are Doula Alliance doulas that are present in other cities, through out the main cities.

Maile: So there's resources for other people to go?

Stephanie: There are resources, yes. Yeah. And then also, I think word of mouth is important, that if you have had a wonderful doula, tell other people about that doula, so that she can receive business as well. For myself personally, I. Yeah, let's see. How would I answer that? Like, you were referred to me by Nora?

Maile: Yes.

Stephanie: And so I think many of the doulas here in town are connected with the midwives that are in town. And that way they know, "Okay, hey, when I have this client that I come across, that is looking for a low to no cost doula, let's refer them to a doula in training who needs births for certifications, and that way it's mutually beneficial."

Maile: Right.

Stephanie: If they're looking for a more experienced doula, to really serve as like the sherpa, to guide them along their way, or their wedding planner, to make their day as smooth as possible, and we want somebody who's really been down this road before, to walk alongside us, that they can be referred to that more experienced doula. And so I have, yeah, resources out there with the midwives, but I also work with hospital births.

Maile: Oh, very nice.

Stephanie: And I'm familiar with a lot of physicians in town.

Maile: Do you have any relationships with the OBs that they will refer?

Stephanie: Well, and I think more frequently people will find me online.

Maile: Okay. Very nice.

Stephanie: Where maybe they're already with their OB.

Maile: Look for a doula and being.

Stephanie: Yes, but then when I come into the hospital, with them to support them at their birth, that the nurses there and the doctors there know me, and recognize me.

Maile: So they can be comfortable with knowing that you're comfortable, you know your way around.

Stephanie: Right, right, and then I can even say, "You know what? This nurse is particularly knowledgeable about the natural birth techniques."

Maile: Okay.

Stephanie: "Let's request and see if that nurse is on when we get there." Or being able to tell them what their preferences. The preferences of the particular OBs are. Like, I happen to know that this OB tends to do more of this, or tends to do more of that, that she's open to this technique that you're looking for, and that whether they're trying to still choose their OB, that I can help provide references and resources to direct and steer them towards the OB that might be the best fit for them, or if they're already with a care provider, that I can help prep them with the questions that they might want to ask or, yeah, help them develop their relationship with their care provider further, so that we are prepared for the best birth possible for them.

Maile: Awesome. So it's approachable, it's easy to get started.

Stephanie: Yeah, and with my name and number out there, I think usually people will either email me, text me, or call me.

Maile: Okay.

Stephanie: And I text or call back, and we talk over the phone, usually, first, and then we'll set up an in-person interview, and I always ask that both mom and the partner are there, because whomever that primary support person is for them.

Maile: It's important.

Stephanie: It's important that they're both comfortable with me. I'm not in it to replace that person.

Maile: So there's no struggle, yeah.

Stephanie: No, I want to come alongside both of them. Sometimes new daddies needs support just as much as new mommies do, and sometimes more. Sometimes the mom-to-be is confident in her decision and is confident in approaching her birth, and it's the dad who's more nervous, and it's the dad who wants to support her at the birth, and is unsure of how to do that. And needs guidance and encouragement along the way of like, "You're squeezing her hips in just the right spot. Good job. Keep doing that."

Maile: So he appears to be more of an expert.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. So that's the role that I love to play. And when people contact me through the Doula Alliance, and they're looking for a doula, if I'm not available, or I'm not the right doula for them, it's then my privilege to be the doula matchmaker for them, because I am acquainted with the doulas in the area, and have trained many of them. I can then say, "Okay, you know what, based on your personality and what you're looking for in a doula and the birth that you're aiming for, these are the three that I would recommend you try first," and refer them to the appropriate resources.

Maile: So the community is really connected?

Stephanie: Yeah.

Maile: And it is approachable and everybody has like a little bit of a friendly relationship.

Stephanie: Right, and that it's not competition-driven. Yeah, but more on finding the right fit, the best doula for every family.

Maile: Well, it was a pleasure having you on AllRedding.

Stephanie: Yes, my pleasure too.

Maile: Thank you so much, and maybe we'll have you on again.

Stephanie: Please do, please have me back, for like the 12 different topics we covered today, we have to come back and talk about each of them.

Maile: Oh, there's so much to talk about.

Stephanie: All right, thank you, Maile, thanks for having me.

Maile: Nice.