Aaron: Welcome everyone to the Back to Health podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Seaton. This is our first episode, and with me today is Seth Duivenvoorden from Duivenvoorden Farms.

Seth: How's it going?

Aaron: A local Dairy down in Cottonwood, correct?

Seth: Correct.

Aaron: So how long, Seth, have you guys been a farm here in this area?

Seth: Since 1963.

Aaron: So we're talking about at least 56 years now?

Seth: 56 years. Yeah. Next June will be 57, so every June.

Aaron: How many generations have been on that family farm?

Seth: Currently four.

Aaron: Currently four.

Seth: My kids are the fourth generation. I am the third generation. My dad and I are partners in the business and he's had it since the early '90s. And then. But his. My dad's parents started it. And they both immigrated from Holland.

Aaron: Wow.

Seth: And then started a new life for the Duivenvoorden and family.

Aaron: That's awesome, man. That's awesome. So you guys, when I met your dad, you guys were in a point of transition where your dad was looking at producing raw milk.

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: And that's when I met your guy's family. So what was it that created that transition? Was it the dairy industry? Was it a passion? What. Was it both? What happened at that time?

Seth: Both. So that was 2007 when we started that. And in 2007. Well, I've known you a long time, Aaron.

Aaron: Long time now.

Seth: Yeah, long time now.

Aaron: We are going back ancient history, you know.

Seth: Yeah, so that was in 2007 and 2008 that the dairy industry really took a horrible turn. We were only milking about 80 cows at that time, which is still really small. But it was enough to get by until the market prices dropped substantially. We ended up at that in 2008. There was about a two-month period where our checks that came from the creamery were actually zero or negative.

Aaron: Wow.

Seth: Because they take out certain bills and stuff, so when you send the milk to them, they are taking it out your mortgage and all that other kind of stuff so we would get. We were working for an entire month for $0 to bring home.

Aaron: Kinda hard to get ahead with that scenario. Yeah.

Seth: Kinda hard to do anything in that scenario. And then one day we had a family friend of ours, called us up and said, "Hey, we wanna buy your milk straight from the farm." And I'm like, can you do that? I don't know. Is that possible? We drink the milk. My whole. Growing up, that's what you do.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: Every dairyman does it. You just pull it out of the tank and drink it. I never saw a problem with it, but as I started to do a little more research on this and get my dad a little more comfortable with the legal issues that could come up because of doing raw milk, we decided it just made perfect sense. My dad is very quality-oriented. And so with him, everything he does is to the benefit of the cow and the benefit of the product. And it's to a point that it's very hard to trust anybody else to do what he does in the barn every day.

Aaron: And you brought up a good point about quality, and that's something you hear from a lot of people who may be concerned about whether raw milk is safe. Are you guys a certified dairy? What grade level are you? And how often are you inspected?

Seth: Yes. Okay. So when we first started this out, we started in 2008 with the Herdshare program. Now, a Herdshare program is kind of a. It's a contract between two people. And with that contract, the dairy basically maintains the herd. You're allowed to drink raw milk from your own personal cow. So, if you buy a share in the cow, you own a portion of that cow, and you are able to get the milk from that cow.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: And so that. We built up a pretty large following. At one point, we had over 275 local families that came out to our farm weekly to pick up milk. And as that grew, we decided. The state also decided that they, alright, you guys are big enough. Let's make this legitimate. And we agreed, let's do this. So, we went to a. We built our raw milk plant, finished the plant in 2017, and received our grade A license.

Aaron: So you are a grade A dairy?

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: And everything's certified. Everything's inspected.

Seth: Everything.

Aaron: And your guys' milk is among probably the most tested in the state, I would imagine. I mean, how often are you guys?

Seth: Yes. It's tested. Everything's tested. So we take that very seriously. All three of my children, after they finished nursing, they went straight to raw milk.

Aaron: So you have vested interest?

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: As well to make sure that this milk is safe.

Seth: Exactly.

Aaron: And another thing about, obviously pathogens can be one concern, but I think it's also important for people to understand that what. If you are consuming a product from an animal, what that animal eats itself affects your health.

Seth: 100%.

Aaron: What is the difference at Duivenvoorden Farms? Because we know that your cows eat fresh grass all of the time, and even in the winter, there's what we call a fodder system in place.

Seth: Correct.

Aaron: To grow freshly sprouted grass for them throughout the winter. Is that typical of a dairy?

Seth: No. No.

Aaron: Can you explain why that's important?

Seth: We are a 100% grass fed dairy. And to follow that up, that means being creative with, when the pasture's in rotation, we use the. Or the pasture's growing during the spring through the summer because it's irrigated. We rotationally graze those cows, moving.

Aaron: So they're moving every so often to allow certain pastures to rest and grow back.

Seth: Exactly.

Aaron: While they're on the next set.

Seth: Minimum of a 14 day rest.

Aaron: Definitely very popular in not only beef herds but dairy herds as well now.

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: To maximize production, but also the health of the cow.

Seth: Exactly.

Aaron: So you guys utilize that at your farm?

Seth: Yeah.

Aaron: How long have you been using that?

Seth: We've been doing that since 2012.

Aaron: That's awesome. Awesome.

Seth: So, in 2012, we built the fencing to implement that system. It started in New Zealand, and then many organic farmers adopted it here because, especially organic dairymen, you maximize production. And when you have a cow rotating through the field, the cow's getting exactly what the cow wants and needs. And then they're also depositing that carbon right back into the soil through manure. And then they're putting it in the soil with their hooves. And so then, you're creating a sustainable environment, and your fields are going to be re-energized. It's a cyclical event that ends up being carbon-negative, or I can't think of the right term.

Aaron: Carbon neutral.

Seth: Carbon neutral.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: So you're able to rotate. How often are they on a pasture? You rotate them through. They're healthier, obviously, because they're eating fresh, grown green grass. They're not staying too long on a certain plot of land. So that land isn't being "overworked."

Seth: Correct.

Aaron: It's allowed to come back. So the land's healthier, the cows are healthier, and anything you consume from that cow is healthier. Whether you're eating the beef, you're drinking the milk. So everybody in this situation wins from the land to the animals to the consumer.

Seth: Right. And you know exactly what your cows are eating.

Aaron: Exactly.

Seth: If you're buying in grain or something else from somewhere else, you don't know how long it took to get to your farm.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: Which, or where it came from or what was used on it? You can find those verifications, but it's a lot harder to get them. So for us, being a small 40-cow, closed herd, it makes a lot of sense for us to operate with these different management practices, along with the grass-fed, 100% grass-fed cows. The other thing to make that work, like you mentioned, with the fodder, so in the wintertime when they go from a fresh green feed to dried hay in the winter, then they're going, they still need that fresh green feed because it'll keep the flavor of the milk consistent, there are so many factors that affect the flavor of milk, especially raw milk, because you're not, nuking it.

Aaron: You're not boiling it at crazy temperatures.

Seth: No, and then, killing off all the good with the bad. Possible bad. And, it's important for that. It also gives them, that wet feed is really important for the cow's gut health, for the cow's rumen health. So when you. Also, just being on a straight grass diet is important for a cow's gut health because what did cows do before we domesticated them? What were they? They were buffalo, or what did they do? They grazed, they're grazing animals. That is what they are meant to eat.

Aaron: You're telling me they're not designed to consume a bunch of genetically modified corn and soy?

Seth: No.

Aaron: Standing on concrete.

Seth: Not in.

Aaron: That's not?

Seth: No. No.

Aaron: Wow. That's shocking.

Seth: Shocking, right. Yeah. That is not what they were intended to eat and.

Aaron: You're touching on something important for people to understand too is there have been several E. Coli outbreaks that people are aware of, and a lot of the times in some of these cases, they've been able to trace that E. Coli outbreak back to, CAFOs, Concentrated Animal Factory Farms that are mass producing or trying to bulk up lots of cows fast. And they're feeding them a lot of genetically modified corn and soy and grain to bulk them up. Does E. Coli live in a cow's gut on a grass diet?

Seth: What I see is the most harm that is doing in that scenario is that that cow is not able to self-regulate. They're unable to reach a state of homeostasis within their gut to be healthy and thriving. Why? They're getting killed in a couple of months. Why do we care? That's the mentality. You're fattening them up, you're getting that marbling, you're getting that extra energy in them, and then by the time they're done with that, they're going to die anyways. That's the theory behind that. And that's the hard part: trying to change that theory to show other farmers that you don't have to do it that way. And I think your consumers would appreciate it if you didn't.

Aaron: Yeah. This is a really good point, too, because we've done studies on grass-fed beef versus grain-fed. There have been studies on free-range chicken eggs that are allowed to graze and have access to fresh green pasture, bugs things because chickens are omnivores, they're not vegetarians, they eat bugs, they eat grass, they eat all the stuff, in those free range eggs versus just store-bought factory produced eggs where they're in a cage all the time. There was 17-1 in the factory produced, 17-1, omega-6s to omega-3s, which we know these omega-6 fatty acids are pro-inflammatory. They cause inflammation. They can cause damage to our bodies if we consume too many of them. The pasture-raised eggs were 1-1, the perfect ratio from what most experts will agree on omega-6s to omega-3s. The same is true in grass-fed beef versus grain-fed.

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: So one of the things we see at Duivenvoorden Farms is an understanding that what you feed these animals affects the end product.

Seth: 100%.

Aaron: So the milk you're going to drink is going to have more of these good things in it.

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: If you're getting grass-fed beef from you guys, which you also offer from time to time.

Seth: Yeah.

Aaron: That quality of beef is going to be far better than something you can get at the store.

Seth: It is, yeah. It is. And it takes longer to produce, but it's a better product.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: It will be more expensive. It will be more, why? Because it does cost more to do it right.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: It does just. It's just, that's the basics of it. And if you are willing and serious about what you put in your body and your overall health, my suggestion to anybody is, even if it's not raw milk, grass-fed beef, or just something, even farm fresh shakes.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: Try them out. I guarantee you, you'll taste the difference.

Aaron: Yes.

Seth: I guarantee you, you'll feel the difference. I guarantee you'll go. Whoa, why is this so different? And it's going to pique that interest, and then you'll dive down into the, oh yeah, this is what my body craves now. This is what my body needs. Is this type of food raised or grown this way? Or even milked this way.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: That's another thing that we do with our milk. On top of the 100% grass-fed, we only milk once daily. So we leave those calves with their moms when they're. When the calves are born, they stay with their moms for a minimum of two months.

Aaron: Is that common, two months at, say, a big factory type of dairy?

Seth: Absolutely not. No.

Aaron: Okay.

Seth: Typical dairy practice is you pull that calf off day one.

Aaron: Wow.

Seth: The calf gets colostrum that is milked from the cow by a human. The calf does not suckle on the mom. The calf is born.

Aaron: And that's not your policy.

Seth: No, not at all. I disagree with that 100%. It makes way more sense to have the calf be raised by its mother and have it get that start. I mean, there is no better start than that.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: And then they're getting colostrum, and you're also saving on labor. That's the other thing. Are you saving a little? Are you losing some milk production? Of course.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: But you're raising a solid product with that calf.

Aaron: Right. And I would imagine that calf and mom are probably quite a bit happier. No emotional stress.

Seth: A lot happier. Yes. Yes. You're. That is the key to our dairy. The stress on the animal must be minimized at all costs. That is something that we've really designed the dairy to eliminate as many stresses as we can on the animal because I believe that that produces a better product.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: And judging by the people who have tasted our product and remained very loyal customers, I believe they see that too.

Aaron: Nice.

Seth: That it just tastes better, you know? And so with that, we leave the calves on the mom. We milk them once a day. We're on a 100% grass-fed. And then, in the actual product, we leave all of the cream on top of the milk. It's exactly that product that you see from us is exactly what the cow gives.

Aaron: No processing, minimal processing. You're not skimming the cream off. You're not. It is whole raw milk.

Seth: That milk goes into our bulk tank through a filter. It is chilled to 32 degrees in that bulk tank. After it goes into that bulk tank, it is pumped into your bottle.

Aaron: So if you want some fresh cream.

Seth: That's it.

Aaron: In your coffee that morning, you can just skim it right off your milk.

Seth: Skim it right off the top.

Aaron: There's plenty of it.

Seth: There's plenty of, there's almost.

Aaron: And that's a personal testimony from me. I've been getting this milk for years.

Seth: Yeah.

Aaron: And there is tons of cream on there, and I will say, I mean, with my kids too.

Seth: Yeah.

Aaron: You give them anything else, they're, what is this, is something wrong with the milk. Like they know that it's not from your farm now.

Seth: Kids know.

Aaron: And my kids are not old, like seven and five, and if I give them something else, they're well aware that that's not what they've had for years.

Seth: Kids are actually my best customers.

Aaron: Yeah. They know the difference.

Seth: Kids know, they taste it once, and they're like, Nah, I want that.

Seth: That is what I want. That's the good stuff.

Aaron: That's the good stuff.

Seth: Yeah. And we've had a lot of kids come up to us and go, I want the good milk, mom. I want the good milk. It's an expensive product. It is hard. So, some people will buy it as supplemental milk.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: So they'll have the other milk, and then they'll have that. The raw milk is a supplement milk.

Aaron: But anything done in this regard, I mean, we've touched on several different things where your farm has addressed a lot of key concerns for a consumer.

Seth: Correct.

Aaron: What the diet of the animal is, the stress on the animals, all these different factors that affect, it would make sense to me just as a consumer that that product's going to cost me a little more money.

Seth: Yeah.

Aaron: Than, I mean, and I'm supporting a local family farm rather than a giant outfit in some cases with little regard for the end product for that consumer.

Seth: Right.

Aaron: So, it makes sense to be a little bit more, and you touched on something I wanted to segue into that: your consumer's happiness, you've talked about the kids enjoying the product. What are some of the testimonials you've heard from consumers? I mean, I've heard a few different life-changing ones from you guys. Are there any that come to mind? Without names, obviously, but any that come to mind? Any testimonials you've heard about improved health, well-being, or anything else?

Seth: I can speak honestly about my wife. She's one of my favorite people to talk about regarding how their life changed because of drinking raw milk. When we met back in 2013, she had not sipped milk in 15 years, and she was drinking the rice water. I refuse to call it milk.

Aaron: Refuse to call it. That's just an insult to any dairyman.

Seth: It is not milk. Yeah. It is just not milk. It is.

Aaron: That's colored water, people.

Seth: Yeah, it's colored water.

Aaron: With rice floating in it.

Seth: That's all it is, right yeah. It is not milk.

Aaron: So we've established that baseline.

Seth: Yeah, now that we're very clear about that, milk comes from a mammal. That is it. That's the only.

Aaron: Rice is not a mammal. It's a plant.

Seth: Yeah. Neither is an almond.

Aaron: And that's certain, that's science.

Seth: Or a walnut or whatever else they're bringing milk out of now, or soybean.

Aaron: Get rid of my smoothie. Get rid of it. It has some almond milk in it.

Seth: Oh! Geez.

Aaron: I was just kidding.

Seth: So yeah. So she was. I remember seeing that in her fridge, and I went, what is this? Are you kidding me right now? This is not okay. Have you tried raw milk? She goes, no, not really. I said, okay, let's just try it out. And she wasn't able to eat ice cream.

Aaron: She had dairy issues?

Seth: Dairy issues.

Aaron: Issues with dairy.

Seth: Oh! Across the board, dairy issues.

Aaron: Any dairy product.

Seth: Any dairy product.

Aaron: She'd get at the store troubled with digestion, stuff like that.

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: Okay.

Seth: A lot of people refer to it as lactose intolerance.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: I don't believe that to be true. I believe it to be certain that the enzymes that they're not getting are to be. It can't break down the lactose properly.

Aaron: Right. There's, and you and I both know, lactase enzyme in raw milk.

Seth: Lactase enzymes.

Aaron: The enzyme lactase is abundant.

Seth: Provided.

Aaron: Not only that, there are other enzymes to help break down the proteins and fats.

Seth: Correct.

Aaron: And part of pasteurization is the denaturing of these enzymes.

Seth: Correct.

Aaron: These enzymes become null and void. They're useless. You have to produce the enzymes now.

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: To break down this sterile product.

Seth: This is why people take lactate pills or they have this lactose.

Aaron: But there's nothing there to help you digest it. And unlike a cow, we only have one stomach. We don't have several to help us break stuff down.

Seth: We don't have. Our body cannot produce the lactase enzyme. It's not possible. We are not wired to produce that. That's why we need it in the milk to combat the lactose.

Aaron: Right. Help us convert it to something useful.

Seth: We convert it to something useful. And then, you have the lactase enzyme that takes care of the lactose. No more lactose problems. It's as simple as that.

Aaron: So tell me about your wife.

Seth: So she started drinking it. We said, all right, let's try a cup a day. See if you have any issues. From day one, she didn't have an issue. I was kind of like, "Oh! Wow. All right. This is neat to be able to experiment with somebody up close and personal. Go, all right, let's do this. Let's regiment your diet. You have not eaten anything dairy-related in 15 years. How do we change this and see how this works?" Within two weeks, all of a sudden, her body was craving the raw milk. And she just, she kept going. Then all of a sudden, it was, she was cereal, everything. It was, but it was all raw milk for the first two weeks to a month. And then she tried out cheese one day. It was a random cheese. And she's like, I'm wondering if I can eat this now. And she could because that lactase enzyme was now providing.

Aaron: This was a pasteurized product.

Seth: This is a pasteurized product.

Aaron: Versus your raw milk.

Seth: But she wanted ice cream, pasteurized product.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: All of these other dairy products are pasteurized, but because she has that lactase enzyme inside her gut from drinking the raw milk, she is able to process these other products.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: And her story had. That very same story has been heard from, I've heard from, I don't know, countless people.

Aaron: Countless people.

Seth: Countless people have come up to me and said very similar stories and gone, look at this, Seth, you know, and I couldn't believe it.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: I can actually drink this. I can drink milk again. You know, and I'm like, that's great. I'm really happy for you.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: And it's a fun thing, you know? I mean, if you've ever had any sort of ailment where you suddenly have a dietary restriction, you don't realize how much you miss something until you can't have it.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: And then when you get it back, ooh man! People are, that's.

Aaron: They're thrilled.

Seth: They're thrilled.

Aaron: You're a Godsend to them.

Seth: Yes. Yeah. They're loving it. And another one that we've had, we've had a couple of newborns coming in with issues processing, either the mom had an issue with being able to produce enough milk for them or they. And then they couldn't do any formula. They had such an issue with any formula on the market.

Aaron: Right.

Seth: And so what they ended up doing was a. There's a Weston A. Price, raw milk formula.

Aaron: Right. Homemade raw milk formula.

Seth: Homemade raw milk formula. And so we've had upwards of 30 to 40 different moms stop in over the years at different times with their newborns going. They can't keep anything down. Something is going on.

Aaron: Right. So they were able to make them follow the Weston Price recipe.

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: There are a couple of things you have, but your base is raw milk.

Seth: Raw milk.

Aaron: This is present with all the enzymes to help you break this down. So, if there's a child having trouble digesting something.

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: This is something that is going to have all of those factors present. They will have a much better chance of absorbing and digesting this.

Seth: Correct.

Aaron: And as you've stated, from cows that are eating 100% grass all the time.

Seth: Correct.

Aaron: So you couldn't produce healthier milk.

Seth: Right.

Aaron: That's awesome.

Seth: Right. The quality it has and the fat is a huge component. That cream that butter fat needs to be in it.

Aaron: Yeah. I've talked to a lot of my parents at my practice over the years about what they're still afraid of, like fat and cholesterol. This has been going on for decades now, and I try to remind them how important fat and cholesterol is to a developing brain. I mean, 25% of your entire body's cholesterol is in your brain. If you don't have it, you're going to have trouble keeping that organ cranking.

Seth: And thats an issue.

Aaron: So especially with the developing child where their production in the brain is at such a rapid pace and up until our brain is maturing until the age of 25. If you start only giving them processed white flour and sugar and all this other crap that's out there that's supposedly food, you're not going to have a healthy functioning adult.

Seth: No.

Aaron: So I'm really glad that you guys produce the milk the way you do because any time my kids get it, I'm thrilled every time I see this cream line on the milk. Some of our milk, it's like here's the cream, and then on yours, it's like halfway down the bottle. I'm like, "Yes," because I know my kids are going to get fat and cholesterol, and I want them to have that in their diet.

Seth: Right.

Aaron: So anyway, that's a random tangent I'm on.

Seth: And are your kids fat? No.

Aaron: My kids are as lean as it gets.

Seth: Oh, as lean as it gets. Why?

Aaron: And I feed them lots of fat.

Seth: They're burning it off.

Aaron: Lots of cholesterol. I'm happy to give them certain carbohydrates, and stuff like that, but their diet is solid. It's not perfect.

Seth: No.

Aaron: No kid's diet is going to be perfect.

Seth: No.

Aaron: But this idea that we. This low-fat myth that continues is just absurd, especially with a developing brain.

Seth: Right.

Aaron: It's absurd.

Seth: Yeah.

Aaron: So what's the future for Duivenvoorden Farms? Where are you guys going now? I know we're seeing you in stores now. You're available at Orchard Nutrition here. You're available at Holiday Markets.

Seth: Yeah. All Shasta County.

Aaron: You're down in Chico. You're up in Mount Shasta. You guys are the largest raw milk dairy in Northern California, would you say, close to it?

Seth: Yeah. We're the only ones.

Aaron: So you're number one.

Seth: We're number one.

Aaron: Okay.

Seth: We're number one across the board.

Aaron: So you heard it, people, you're talking to the champion here.

Aaron: So you guys are the largest and only raw milk dairy in Northern California.

Seth: In Northern California. Yeah. There are a couple of other raw milk dairies in California. Just so we're clear for people who, I don't think I touched on this, it is legal to sell retail sales of raw milk in California as long as you are a Grade A dairy, have a Grade A milk plant, and are inspected by everyone in the state.

Aaron: And you guys have been doing that for years.

Seth: For years.

Aaron: With no problem.

Seth: With no problem. Yeah.

Aaron: There you go.

Seth: And it's simple as that. You do it the right way.

Aaron: Yeah.

Seth: You can be in operation.

Aaron: Everybody's happy.

Seth: Everybody's happy.

Aaron: Everybody's happy.

Seth: Yeah.

Aaron: One very important thing, I think, for people, and I think more and more consumers are wanting this, is this connection with where their food comes from. I feel so fortunate and blessed to have known the Duivenvoorden family now for over 10 years, and I consider them close friends of mine. And so I know that they produce wonderful second-to-none quality products. So, if you're interested in connecting more with where your food comes from and your local farmers who have been doing it for 56 years, come on out, and meet the Duivenvoordens here. If they want more information, the best place to go would probably be rawmilkdairy.com.

Seth: Correct. Yeah.

Aaron: Perfect, man.

Seth: Our last name is pretty hard.

Aaron: Listen, duivenvoordensfamilyrawmilkdairy.org was taken.

Seth: Exactly.

Aaron: .edu.

Seth: Yes.

Aaron: Okay. That was.

Seth: Yeah.

Aaron: Yeah. Okay. Seth Duivenvoorden, thank you for being here with us today.

Seth: Thanks so much for having me.

Aaron: Thanks so much for coming on to our first episode of Back to Health. I'm your host, Aaron Seaton.