Joey: Hey, I'm here with Jeff Tugwell from Tugwell Roofing Company. Good buddy. Good to see you, man.

Jeff: Nice to see you, buddy.

Joey: Thank you for coming down.

Jeff: Yeah, Absolutely.

Joey: I met you when it was just getting started and that wasn't that long ago. And it's come quite a way. It's in a short period of time.

Jeff: It was actually on my birthday, March 6th of 2007 is when my contractor's license went into effect.

Joey: What made you decide that you were going to start your own business?

Jeff: Well, I worked for Benson Roofing for a local roofing company for about 10 years. And then decided that I was going to. I wanted to try something new, open up a handyman business and that really wasn't paying the bills very well, so I decided to get my contractor's license and the rest is history.

Joey: It started just you, it was just you, nobody else?

Jeff: Yeah, just me and my girlfriend. She'd helped me put the compressor in the back of the truck when I felt like I needed help.

Joey: Nice.

Jeff: And, I had a roommate back then, and I'd have my roommate help me tear off the roof so then I'd put them on and one thing led to another. I would just cross my fingers and hope to get another job. That wasn't working. So I learned how to hustle quickly and started knocking on doors. Yeah, back then it was at the worst of the economy. I didn't know any better. But I just knew I had to get the phone to ring, and so I started knocking on doors, and then I'd get a. I'd leave flyers at their doorstep. They'd give me a call. I'd go out and give them an estimate. Yeah. Then, one thing would lead to another. I'd get another job, then so on and so on. And then I would just hire as I needed. And that's how we grew the company.

Joey: So you didn't have, like, when you started, you didn't have dreams of, "Hey, I'm going to have a large company, I'm going to have teams or," it was just like, "Hey, I just gotta pay some bills right now."

Jeff: You know what? As most contractors would tell you when they first start, it's like, "Hey, I just want to do. " If I did one job a month, that would be. I would pay the bills.

Joey: Yeah.

Jeff: And then, that started happening. Then I'd get a couple a month, and then it turned into one a week. And then, at that point, I started making phone calls, trying to get a couple of guys. And from there, one thing led to another, again, as I said, and the next thing, I got two or three a week, and I'm hiring more guys. And that's kind of how I grew the company from one guy to where we are today. I just hired guys as I needed them.

Joey: How many people do you have now?

Jeff: We have 40 guys.

Joey: Wow.

Jeff: We have 40 employees with the two ladies in the office. Yeah.

Joey: Were there any like aha moments on the way up, like, of the growth where you're just like, "Man, I've gotta. " Like, something happened, you're like, "Okay, I gotta go this way, or I've gotta do this, or I've gotta transition," or anything like that? Were they? You know what I mean? Any major points? Or was it just natural, progressive?

Jeff: It's funny you say that because really a turning point in my business career was when I stopped making it about me and started making it about my employees.

Joey: Really?

Jeff: Absolutely. And I mean, it's cliche, it might be cliche, but when you start worrying about them, and I just worried about making sure that I had worked for them, wanting to pay them well. And I just shot up from there.

Joey: I know that you and I have talked a lot, and you've given me a lot of advice, business advice, several books to read, and various things to do. So, did you have somebody like that, or is it just you on your own figuring this stuff out?

Jeff: I guess it was. It might've been subconsciously from what I've learned previously, but it was just necessary to keep them busy. Right? Because if you don't keep your guys busy, you'll lose them.

Joey: Yeah.

Jeff: And so I. And most contractors are afraid to do that. They're like, "Hey, man, if I could. If I'm participating, I'm making more money and helping them put on the roofs. " And yeah, I started that way. But at some point, I had to reduce my salary in order to keep them busy. And in turn, that gave me more time to grow the business.

Joey: And it puts pressure on you to focus on this part?

Jeff: Totally.

Joey: Yeah.

Jeff: It put pressure on me to work on how to get more work. And so I learned how to get more work and where everybody was used to. Before I went into business, a lot of contractors were just waiting for the phone to ring. And so they were kind of used to that. And where I went out and figured out ways to keep these guys busy, and that's how it took off.

Joey: There's a. I'm trying to. I hate that when I say there's a book or something, but I can't remember the author. There's a book called E-Myth Demystified, and it talks about how the people who are really good at something aren't necessarily good at running the business, because it's somebody really good at taking care of a roof is not going to be good at running a roofing company. It's a different business. It's a different transition.

Jeff: Sure.

Joey: And so you made that transition from A to B. There was.

Jeff: You know what Joey? It's interesting because I grew up an athlete. And I mean, I'm not going to pat myself on the back or anything like that, but I was a team leader. And so I would be a team captain or whatever. And I think that transitions, and I believe that that's true in many different areas of business, athletes do well in business because of their competitive nature and leadership abilities. And I kind of, I believe, had a great effect on the success of my company. No doubt about it.

Joey: We hear it all the time, or I did growing up, and I hear it now with my kids, is that that's what sports teach. It's not about the sport. It's about teaching them certain things. Teamwork.

Jeff: Teamwork.

Joey: Sacrifice.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: Sacrifice equaling payoff, you know?

Jeff: Totally.

Joey: Things like that. And we always use sporting metaphors and analogies when we're trying to explain stuff, especially in business. I know I do. Everything's football this, basketball this, team this, pass, don't just try always to score type thing. So I can completely see that. So you started off as a team captain. You're. You said sports. I know you play a couple of sports, but one of them was. You played.

Jeff: Baseball.

Joey: Yeah.

Jeff: Yeah, I played baseball and basketball at Enterprise High School. And then, from there, I played. Went out to Shasta College and played baseball out there. And majored in baseball. No, I just did general ED, and then after my years were up there, I just started working for a roofing company.

Joey: And you've transitioned. So you started off, because we know a lot of the same people, is that you started off and now you're their boss. That transition of, you were the younger guy, they were your boss, and now they work for you.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: Has that, like. Are there challenges there sometimes? Or you just. You're just going to team-lead them?

Jeff: Not really. I don't think so. I think I respect all my guys, and whether it be someone I used to work for or guys who used to have their own company that now work for me, I respect them because I get it. It's not for everybody. Running a business isn't for everybody.

Joey: No. Clearly.

Jeff: It's for me. I truly enjoy it. The challenges of it, the competitive nature of it. And I thrive in running a roofing company.

Joey: Do you have any pressures for growth? Do you ever, is that? Because you talked about it being organic and natural. Is it organic and natural, or are you putting constant goals in front of yourself and then achieving them, and so that's the natural progression?

Jeff: I believe so, yeah. I'm always setting goals. And it's obviously more than it was the year prior. For a while there, we were doubling our business. And most business coaches will tell you that's not a good model.

Joey: No.

Jeff: To double your business. Yeah, how do you keep up with that, with the quality? You know, and so it was a. You really have to be invested in your business in order to do that. And with us, it was. With me, why I'm able to stay sane and have that many guys and do as much work as we do, I had to develop systems. So, yeah, I have one system, but within that system, I have four or five different other systems, and we have leaders in charge of each different area within my business. And that's what makes us successful. Because I want to grow leaders, not managers. And, it's big for me to put the onus on someone else and let them know that that's their baby. Look, you have the tear-off crew. Those 14 guys are your baby, and I want to make sure that you're accountable for them. And then I have three estimators and a sales manager. And so I have someone in charge of each different category. So I have a system within four or five different systems within the big system.

Joey: What are the challenges when you talk about leaders versus managers? I know what you mean, but can you touch upon the difference between a leader and a manager or maybe something, if you want to be specific or just kind of general about, like, no, that person's not going to be a leader, they're going to be a manager.

Jeff: Well, I mean, there's a quote out there, and I can't quote it exactly, but it basically illustrates a boss standing behind a group of guys pushing them and a leader in the true sense of the word is someone out in front of them, showing them the way, with them, they're in it together, and they're not just a boss's demanding. And like I tell my guys now, it's 2017. It's a different era. We don't demand things from our guys. We include them in our meetings. So, our meetings are very interactive. And so leader leaders are guys that are part of the team. They're just the leader of the team.

Joey: You'd have made a great marine. I can tell you, you remind me of when I was a young marine. We had a colonel, Colonel Pratt, and he was one of these guys who did the same thing in the military. You get the guys that are pushing. You get the people who are your superiors in rank who are. And everyone hates them. And then you have the. And it's not just because, well, they outrank you, no it's because, as you put it, they're behind pushing versus leading. And I remember Colonel Pratt was a hell of a guy, and we went through hell with him. And I don't remember anyone who wouldn't go to war with the guy. But he was one of those guys that led the team and empowered people and had a high level of accountability, which I think is that's a big part of it, is not just. Feel free to jump in, but that's a big part of leaders have to be accountable.

Jeff: Right.

Joey: Not just, oh, you get a bigger paycheck and you get to boss people around.

Jeff: Sure.

Joey: Hey, man, the buck also stops with you.

Jeff: Right.

Joey: And that's responsibility.

Jeff: And I bet you that back in the day, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, the colonels were a lot different than they are today. You know what I mean?

Joey: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff: I mean, so it's a natural progression, and if you stick to doing it the same way that you did it 20, 30 years ago, you're not going to be as successful as if you adapt to the times. And I think that's important. And that's kind of what we do. It's a constant education. Staying humble and putting your ego aside is a big deal.

Joey: Now, I saw that talking about education, we did a thing. You did a post on that you run education there. You have a training facility, is that common? Like you see.

Jeff: In our area?

Joey: Yeah.

Jeff: I'm not too sure if the other companies have training facilities, I'm sure there are a couple, but I believe that in our area, in Redding, I think we have 35 roofing contractors.

Joey: Is that all?

Jeff: Yeah. So I don't believe that most of them do, but I'm sure that there are a couple out there that do. And in our yard, we have a large training roof. So, you have to be able to pass our test before you can go out and install it on someone else's roof. So, you're going to pass the certification test. Once you're certified, we'll put you on a homeowner's roof.

Joey: I hear from not just other contractors I know, but honestly, I'm hearing this from everybody. We even have this in our business because it's getting harder and harder to get labor. And is it like, has it always been like that? Or does it feel? You've been doing this for 10 years? Is it getting harder to get labor?

Jeff: You know.

Joey: You know what I mean, people that'll come and actually do a good job. You know what I mean?

Jeff: Yeah. Well, labor is one thing.

Joey: Okay.

Jeff: A skilled tradesmen is another.

Joey: Sorry. I meant. Okay. Skilled tradesmen.

Jeff: So laborers are applying quite a bit. It's the journeyman-level installers that we struggle to find. But even those guys we bring in, we have to tweak. There's a saying at our company. It's the Tugwell way, and you have to learn the Tugwell way. You have to be. When I interview someone, I lay it on the table for them and tell them, "There's going to be some things that we're going to change with you. Are you open to that? I know that you're an expert. I believe that you've been doing a great job. Are you open to change?" Because there are going to be some. We're strict on certain things because of our warranties for homeowners. So, yeah. I mean, is it hard to get labor? Yeah, it is. I found that it was. I wouldn't say easy, but they were more plentiful until I reached a certain point.

Jeff: And once I got to about 30 guys now, they stopped. It seems they're all working for somebody else or not coming into the area. And so, yeah, it's a little bit difficult. So that's when we decided, "Hey, listen, we're not getting a bunch of installers applying, so let's find good kids, good people." You don't have to be a kid to be a roofer, but we're looking for quality people. And as the saying goes, find good people and train them. Well, that's what we want to do. And we are. Some good kids don't want to go to college, and it doesn't mean that you're a bad kid just because you don't want to go to college. Some guys are just made for construction. And so we've developed a system where we want guys to retire for us, and that's not very common.

Joey: No.

Jeff: In a roofing company, in our, in Northern California. So what we've done is we've tried to create high wages for them. We want them to be paid well, and then we want to offer them retirement and other benefits. That want to, that so that we retain our employees. Getting quality employees is one thing. Retaining the people that you have is another.

Joey: Yes.

Jeff: So we want to retain our quality people.

Joey: Very nice. Very nice. So, okay, so you started building this business. This natural growth, the challenges, you're kind of going through all the challenges and everything. What's next? You're at a. It sounds like things are firing on all cylinders. We've talked a little bit, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the challenge right now is finding those quality people, that the growth isn't inhibited by the number of people that are calling Tugwell. It's inhibited by, "Hey, look, we can only do this many jobs. We need more people in." So how are you going to? You said getting younger people and training them. How are you challenged? How are you?

Jeff: I think growth kind of takes care of itself as far as we want to have more guys. We want to do more jobs. We have plenty of work on the board that we could increase our production. There's no doubt. But in the meantime, what we're focused on is getting better. And that's why I said stay humble and release your ego. And so, we have daily and weekly meetings, and we're just focused on getting better. Not to say that we're not up to par or not at an elite level, but in order to stay at an elite level, we want to improve. And that's what I'm focused on. So, I'm not necessarily focused on growth in 2017. I do have a goal, where I do want to do more than I did last year, you know? And just like our employees, they have goals that they want to make more than they did the year prior. But I don't see that. Once you get to a certain point as far as production goes, it's not going to be as exaggerated as it was back in 2014 for us when we doubled our production. It's going to be slight growth. And so I just want to focus on getting better and staying at the top of the pack.

Joey: It's funny because some of the things you're saying remind me of. It has a very Eastern philosophy kind of, overtones of Kaizen, continuous improvement. There's always room for improvement. And the Western philosophies have this, like a lot of this idea that when something goes wrong, okay, who's to blame? Whose fault is it? Versus, wait a second, maybe this person is exploiting a weakness in our system, so let's take this opportunity to fix our system because you can't count on always having the best guy, you know what I mean? And not skill. And that has a big impact on quality assurance, but you have to have a good system in place. And you were talking about that earlier, good systems. And so.

Jeff: Yeah. Our system is good. But the funny thing is that our systems change yearly and within that year. And so it can be exhausting to some of the leaders within our team saying, "Hey, this is. We were doing it that way, but we're always looking for a better way. It's just what our MO is. We want to find a better way, a more efficient way, whether it be in the office with the phones, and we're constantly improving our systems. And so yeah. There's a lot of change involved in that. There's no doubt.

Joey: You know, taking a step back to something you said a couple of minutes ago about, you kind of touched upon trades as I was. My mind thought about how we're hearing a lot today of people who have gone to college, and they say, "Hey, I am in debt. I have this piece of paper, and I went to school, so I did go to college, and I have this piece of paper, and I can't get employment." You know what, I don't hear, and then the flip side is I hear a lot of people in your position saying, "Hey, I'm having a hard time getting qualified people in. Enough qualified people. And what I don't hear is I don't hear about tradespeople saying, I can't find work."

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: Do you know what I mean? It's like, I think maybe in America, we oversold the, "Hey, go to college, get this abstract education."

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: "Go in debt, and oh, by the way, there are no jobs for you." And meanwhile, over here, we have a need for trades for things that actually get done. And we haven't been feeding that pipeline at all. And we're saying, like, I talked to. Our house dishwasher broke, got a warranty, called, and said, "Yeah, I'll be there July 5th." So we're without a dishwasher for a week. So we're hand washing.

Jeff: Oh my God.

Joey: I broke down. I'm not going to keep it. No, I busted suds at my parent's restaurant. Are you kidding me? You want to see efficiency. You put me in front of a sink with some dish soap, so basically, I'm busting suds for a week.

Jeff: Right.

Joey: It doesn't bother me, but it's just that idea that there's a need over here that didn't get filled. And for the last 20 or 30 years, we've been doing this bill of sale where you hear people complaining. I mean, I know. I didn't just come up with that, that people are complaining they owe a hundred plus thousand dollars in student loan debt, and they're like, there's no employment for them.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: I mean, there are probably some other factors involved in that. And just how that educational system, what that kind of fosters and the mentality that sometimes, especially some of these educational facilities, they can foster a certain mentality and it's that, that all feeds to, hey, I can't get a job. It's like, eh, you could probably get a job.

Jeff: This was not, maybe not the job that you were thinking you'd get out of college, but it is a sign of the times. I mean, I don't focus on that, but I know it's a problem throughout the country. I go to these conventions, and all I hear is the other contractors and the speaker of the convention talking about, I know your guys' main problem is labor. You know, not getting guys, not enough labor to do the work that you have on your plate, but we hear it a lot with the younger generation coming in. They're not necessarily maybe as motivated in the trades as it was 10, 20 years ago. So, it's a struggle to get the younger generation through. And, yeah. So it's a constant battle, man, no doubt about it.

Joey: But it's also a lot of, for the younger people listening, it's a lot of opportunity too.

Jeff: Tons of opportunity.

Joey: So instead of thinking that you just, hey, I'm going to go to school, I'm going to get a degree in something, and then there'll just be a job waiting for me. It's like, there's a lot of opportunity. You and I are both members of a network group of business people, and I've been blown away. I'm new to the group, but I was blown away by the professionalism and the success that the individuals in the group were having. And I would be willing to bet that if you pan across the board, the number of college degrees is actually really small, you know? Conversely, I have a good group of friends who have college degrees that can tell you that this, the struggle, their rewards to investment ratio on that college degree, they don't feel like they got a good bill of sale. I'm happy, you know?

Jeff: Right.

Joey: But I can tell you, my education started the day after I graduated school.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: It was on the job where it really, the piece of paper was just, it got you the interview, you know what I mean?

Jeff: Yeah. I think.

Joey: It got you in the door.

Jeff: Sure. Yeah. And I've read something recently where they say true education starts when you get out of school.

Joey: Yeah.

Jeff: When you graduate is when you really are educating yourself for your income and your future and your career. You have to. It's a constant education. I mean, the people that stop learning after college, I think that's a mistake. You know? And I just want to get better and want to learn something every day.

Joey: So, advice to youth. So if you have some local young people and they're in high school, and they're not sure they should take on a bunch of debt, you know what I mean, if you have a passion, if you said, "Hey, I'm going to be a doctor, I'm going to be a lawyer, I'm going to do this. I'm going to be a school teacher," if you know your passion, then by all means, right? Go for it. But I think the vast majority, I'm 45, and I'm not sure what I want to do when I grow up. So I'm wondering how many 18, 17, 19, 20-year-olds.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: If you were going to give them straight advice, what would you tell them?

Jeff: Well, I would have a hard time giving them advice during this talk that we're having.

Joey: Yeah.

Jeff: I would, my advice would be to listen to your parents.

Joey: Okay.

Jeff: But if they came to me, and that's the thing, one of the things that is kind of our culture at Tugwell Roofing, is that there's a lot of that going on. A lot of advice, a lot of you know soul searching and helping each other. And I do get young guys in there and take those guys under my wing. I have a young son as well. He's a 17-year-old boy.

Joey: Is he 17 now?

Jeff: 17.

Joey: Wow.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: That's fast.

Jeff: He'll be 17 tomorrow.

Joey: Oh, happy birthday.

Jeff: Yeah. Right.

Joey: Happy birthday, man.

Jeff: Happy birthday, Matthew.

Joey: Very good.

Jeff: So, yeah, my advice would be to just go to work every day, be on time, don't give excuses. Right? Start somewhere. It doesn't matter if you start at Starbucks or if you start at Taco Bell, or if you start at Tugwell Roofing Company; develop a work ethic and go from there. A lot of kids come and start working for me. And you get the kids that don't show up, or they call with an excuse, and our philosophy is, I'm not a real, hard boss to work for, but I don't deal with excuses. So, and that's kind of laid out there right in the beginning. And that's. I'm trying to teach them a lesson, right? So I'll let them know, I'll pat them on the back when they show up the next day and say, "Hey, listen, man, if you show up late again, I'm going to write you up, and if you show up late again after that, I'm going to let you go. Okay? Because I need you to be here every day."

Joey: Accountability.

Jeff: You gotta teach them accountability, right?

Joey: Yeah, exactly.

Jeff: So some kids are okay.

Joey: That's something I'm teaching.

Jeff: Some kids, young kids, are like, okay, with three weeks worth of work. But no, I guess my advice would just be to teach them a proper work ethic and to tell them to get started and do something, whether it's like I said, Taco Bell or construction or school. Get to it. Don't sit around in your bedroom or the living room playing video games. That's not going to get you anywhere. So that's my advice to them: just get started on something, commit to it, and see it to the end.

Joey: I think that's great advice. I think that's the kind of advice they need versus going into plastics. It's the future.

Jeff: Right.

Joey: So who's going to get that movie reference? So, another thing. Are there any books that you're reading right now? Because I know you've given me several books to read. Are there any ones that are on top of your list right now? I've got a couple. I'm reading, I just read Tribe by Sebastian Junger. It's pretty good, a short read, kind of cool. And then I'm reading The Obstacles Is the Path by Ryan Holiday.

Jeff: Oh, that's a good one.

Joey: Yeah.

Jeff: I haven't read that one, but I heard about it. It was pretty good. What's the DarrenDaily book that I.

Joey: The Compound Effect?

Jeff: The Compound Effect.

Joey: I gave you that book.

Jeff: Yeah. I read that once, and then I got it on CD and so it's like reading all over again by listening to it, so it was pretty cool. That one has a lot of things in there that you could remind yourself of year in and year out.

Joey: It goes back to what you were talking about earlier when you said, coming in, improving, constantly changing, small little improvements, that's kind of the philosophy of the Compound Effect is that everyone's looking for this big magic bullet.

Jeff: Right.

Joey: This is everything right now, and I think a big part of that is that we've gotten a very short attention span. We've gotten a very, what's the term when you. The immediate gratification.

Jeff: Right.

Joey: Quarterly reports, that kind of thing. We've got a culture where we fed immediately. We want immediate success. And that book says, "Hey look, success is not one big step. It's a series of right choices that follow. Just like failure is usually not bad luck, it's a series of poor decisions that have put you in a position to be punished by life constantly."

Jeff: Right.

Joey: So now that was.

Jeff: Exactly. It's like diet and eating bad food, it's going to. You're not going to see the effects of it immediately, even in your younger years. And then, slowly, it'll develop into something bad. And it's the same way with eating the right foods. You're going to not see the effects right off the bat, but two, three years down the road, you're going to feel it, you're going to see it, you're going to be happier. It goes into a lot of things like that exercise. The guy who says, "I'm going to exercise every day for an hour and a half at the gym." That's not going to work out for him as well as if a guy says, "You know what? I will do it three days a week for the rest of my life." That's a slow progression there.

Joey: Don't burn yourself out.

Jeff: Right. Yeah. Don't burn yourself out. Absolutely. But the book that changed my life, and I'd say this.

Joey: Here we go. This is what I wanted.

Jeff: It's a big one. It's the Rockefeller Habits by Verne Harnish. So that changed my business life. And, once the guy that recommended that book, I was. I had a booth up at the home show, and I was sitting there talking to customers. And this guy I know walked by that owns a prestigious company here in town, Bob Mather.

Joey: Okay.

Jeff: Suggested he saw the growth that we were having. And he goes, "Hey, have you read Rockefeller Habits?" And now there's an updated version called The Scaling Up, which I've read as well. So, that book really changed my business outlook, and I think that's a great one for people who want to have a growing company or are growing because it sets you up with worksheets on how to develop these systems and meetings. And it was like a light bulb went off when I read that book, and it gave me the confidence to grow. And I thank him for it every time I see him.

Joey: How long ago was that you bumped into him?

Jeff: That was. I would say that was probably four years into my business. So, probably 2011 is when I. When he gave me that book, he suggested that book.

Joey: Yeah.

Jeff: And so, yeah, I've actually gone to a business meeting and in front of 50 other business owners and shared that book with them and said, "Hey, this is my Bible, other than the Bible"

Joey: Other than The Bible.

Jeff: Yeah, other then The Bible. I suggest reading it if you are an aspiring business owner. And so it's a great book. I highly suggest it.

Joey: Okay. So we talked about several success factors, different personal choices, things you did, and people with outside influence, but what about mistakes? Right?

Jeff: Mistakes.

Joey: I mean, the path isn't perfectly straight, right?

Jeff: We don't make mistakes. Never. No. Now, we probably make mistakes and probably make them often, but not as often as our competition. And I mean, the big thing to do is learn from your mistakes, right? So we want to, what is it? You're either succeeding or learning from your failures. So you're never in a bad situation there as long as you learn from your mistakes. And so we've had a time where we maybe grew a little too fast, like I said when we went from 10 employees to 20 employees, and it doubled our production, and we had a hard time keeping up with the supervision.

Jeff: And so I learned, during that period, that I had to have instructors on the job. I had to have crew leaders, and I had to hire project managers. So now a big thing for us is just proper supervision. And then after that, what you need to do is you have to go back, and you have to check on the final product. So, I think many mistakes are being made in the industry, and hopefully, this will help a few people. I'm not opposed to that. It is not having proper supervision on the job site and then not doing a final check. So often it's like, the guys get done, and yeah, we're done with that job, and you're like, "Okay, great, we got a check, we're moving on". But we don't collect a check until we have a final inspection. And that final inspection is a 40-point checkpoint for our guys to go out. It's either Jordan or myself that goes out.

Joey: Really?

Jeff: Yeah. And does a final inspection. So you pass that inspection. It's more times now that it's Jordan. Jordan is our quality control. You see how I say quality control, project manager, we don't want to overdo it with that, but we want to have, we don't want any job to be done without having an inspection, without having quality control in place. So yeah, we've had issues with maybe just a few things that a good roofer would miss. Just simple things that aren't. Not everybody will catch them, or maybe one eye will catch them and another won't. So, you know, we go through and just make, and double check all their work and say, "Hey, you know, we found some things that weren't sealed up, or you had a low nail here that may cause a leak in the future. Let's fix that." And so, yeah, it's just proper supervision, project management, and then quality control and a final inspection.

Joey: You know, I know something about you that quality means it's more than just a word. Okay? And so I use the analogy when I'm with the people I work with when we talk about, you know, we want to be Mercedes. We want to have that reputation as the highest. We don't want to be. We don't want the most cars on the road. We want when people are arguing about what the best car is. Were you like that from day one? Were like quality, like because you know what.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: People are like, "Hey, I got to feed myself. I got to make money. I got to. You know, profit margins." But did you always have that like, "Hey, look, quality will serve me in the long run."

Jeff: Well, I think it's so important in business to set yourself apart. And you know what? How could you set yourself apart? So our philosophy is that Tugwell Roofing is, you answer the phone, number one, that, believe it or not, does not happen daily.

Joey: No, I believe it. I know.

Jeff: So we answer the phone when you call, we're on time, so we do all the. There's a lot of basic things that you can do. You do what you say when you say you will do it. Right? Okay. And then you got to do a great job for them. Right? Because if you don't do a great job and you don't do a ground cleanup, and you don't do all the things that you promised the customer, well, then you're a liar. I mean, in my opinion. So that's what I teach my guys is to say, "Hey, listen, when I went and did the estimate, I told the homeowner what we were going to do We were going to follow these things in the proposal." And if we don't do those, well, then we're not holding up our end of the bargain. So, yeah, I mean, that's a big thing is to just stick to the basics. Set yourself apart by doing a great job. And then, yeah, great customer service. That's what we want to do.

Joey: Very nice.

Jeff: So.

Joey: So we talked about business. Let's talk about you, and I went fly fishing the other day.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: And I caught way more fish than you.

Jeff: Of course.

Joey: This is what I would like to say, but that's not true. It was so bad that the day after you and I went fishing, the fishing guy called me and offered to give me lessons because he felt bad you'd caught so many more fish than me. I was like, "This is my third time, man," you know what I mean? I've just done this more than three times. So, you know, you like to fish.

Jeff: Oh, it's a blast, man. I love. I'm not a fly fisherman. I'm definitely a novice.

Joey: Don't say that. I just got done saying that you caught more fish than me.

Jeff: I have some more experience than you in fly fishing.

Joey: Okay, fair enough. Yeah.

Jeff: But, you know, I've been fishing around here forever. And boy, when I got on that boat and did the fly fishing trip, man, that's a blast.

Joey: That is a blast.

Jeff: Yeah, I'm in love with it.

Joey: And we're rolling right through the center of town.

Jeff: Yeah. And it's amazing.

Joey: And it's like we're sitting there pulling trout out left and right.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: You look around and there's a highway, there's people, there's.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: You know what I mean, it's like we didn't have to go 40 miles out of town off a private River Runs Through It, type thing.

Jeff: Totally.

Joey: And, you know, we had a blast.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: We also, you know what I can do is, I get to control this video.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: So I have that picture of that bass that you pulled out of Shasta Lake.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: Remember that one? Oh, it's that way.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: That was a good story. No, but we went fishing out at the lake.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: So how often do you go on the lake?

Jeff: You know, probably in the summertime or probably spring through fall, maybe a dozen times.

Joey: It's been pretty hot.

Jeff: Yeah, I got some hardcore friends that are out there four or five times a week. But I don't have time for that.

Joey: No?

Jeff: No, I don't. I don't have time for that. I like other things other than fishing in Shasta Lake. But I definitely never have a bad time when I'm out there. No doubt.

Joey: So that's a good segue. What are some other things you like to do? What are some other hobbies and recreation?

Jeff: Well, I really enjoy relaxing in my backyard and just hanging out by the pool. You know, I love golf. So I try to. Golf is my number one right now.

Joey: Really?

Jeff: My number one hobby. Absolutely.

Joey: Okay.

Jeff: Yeah. So I want to golf as much as possible. And that probably means, maybe once or twice a week. But that's quite a bit of it.

Joey: Very nice. That is quite a bit for you.

Jeff: So I try to get out there.

Joey: Because you're running a Business.

Jeff: Even when it's hot. But, yeah, I love golf, and I'm not very good at it. But I do have that one or two good shots per hole is what keeps you coming back for me. And I strive to get better. I'm extremely competitive. So I love golf, and I love fishing and playing a little bit of poker. Recently played.

Joey: You know, that's where I was trying to lead this conversation.

Jeff: I know.

Joey: Was poker.

Jeff: I know. So I.

Joey: Alright, you did. You got.

Jeff: Yeah, I did. I went over to Las Vegas and played in a World Series of Poker event and played in a couple of them. I think I played four on the last trip and did pretty well in one. I got down to the final two tables. Got 12th out of 1,740 people, 12th place, which is pretty good.

Joey: Yeah. That's really good.

Jeff: It's good. But when you get that far, it's when. There's a big prize, and it sits up top. And I don't like to complain about 12th place because it seems not the right thing to do, but yeah, I mean, it was a bummer that I went out there. But pretty good a pretty good story. I told my buddies that 12th place in the World Series of Poker event.

Joey: I wonder if anybody from Redding has done better than that if it were, because right after you placed all of. We have a small little community of poker people. It started firing around, you know.

Jeff: Right.

Joey: There's another Bob as a poker player who does pretty well in the World Series.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: Greg is heading out.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: And so I don't know if anybody from Redding has done any better than that.

Jeff: I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But yeah, I'm going to go back. I'm going to go back and play the main event. I'm going to try to satellite in and play the big one.

Joey: How many people are usually in that one?

Jeff: In that one, you'll see close to 7,000 people in one poker event.

Joey: So that's the one that's like, first place is usually running around $7,000,000, $8,000,000. Right?

Jeff: Right. Yeah.

Joey: Wow. What a light that would be. That would be.

Jeff: Yeah, that.

Joey: We have some bragging rights, man.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: I once took fourth in a five-man poker tournament. I don't know if that counts.

Jeff: Yeah, I think we were at a final table before in that arena.

Joey: Oh, yeah. And you took me out. That's what I was saying. I remember it. I remember it very clearly. I had Ace King, and you had Pocket Fours.

Jeff: Wow.

Joey: And, yeah.

Jeff: And that stood up?

Joey: It stood up. Well, you were in. You were never, were not in the lead.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: But I could have got you a couple of hands prior, and I don't. You had Ace Eight, and I had Ace Jack, and I talked too much.

Jeff: Oh, okay.

Joey: I either was young. It was early in my poker career, man, I didn't.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: And it's still young. I'm still so far away. I was talking to Greg the other day, and he's like, oh, you should come and play out. I'm like, "So I can donate?"

Joey: Are you kidding me, man? This isn't 2007.

Jeff: No. You don't give yourself enough credit, bro.

Joey: I've been watching Doug Polk Poker.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: That's Doug Polk Poker. Doug Polk Poker.

Joey: He, just listening to him makes me realize how little I know when he starts talking and when he takes it to that level, and he is explaining the theories of. I mean, he's going. It's like listening to Bobby Fischer talk about chess. It was like, well, clearly, I don't want to play against this guy. And he doesn't win everything. Although he's doing pretty good. But I think he's indicative of what's the talent pool that's there.

Jeff: Yeah. I think poker resembles a business, and you have to keep evolving.

Joey: Oh, yeah.

Jeff: And you know, like I do, that it's a ton different than it was 10, 5, 10 years ago. I mean, it's just constantly changing. And I see it when I go play. I'm like, wow, this is not how it used to be played. It used to be a lot easier. Now there's a higher-quality player there. So.

Joey: When you see the people, one of the things I noticed a few years ago, they would. I'm watching the World Series of Poker and watching various events, and you're, these guys are professional poker players, and this professional poker player, and all of a sudden. This person is a physicist from the University of Maryland and a mathematician from MIT.

Joey: And you know what I mean? There are all these people whose background is heavy in mathematics, and physics.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: You know what I mean? Engineering, and it's like get in.

Jeff: But you also have a different group of people. And those are the people, that the players that go on the field and intuition and just by watching however people or how others are playing and playing off of that. And I think that that's how I model my game after. I think the math after playing as long as we have really comes second nature to me. And I think that I kind of go off of feeling and reading the other player.

Joey: Yeah. You know, I'd say that's how I started. And then I got to math and didn't want my game to strike.

Jeff: Because you love math.

Joey: Yeah, I do. I do.

Jeff: And I don't.

Joey: Because I don't have to worry about my read because it is my read right. Is my read wrong?

Jeff: Right.

Joey: The math with 52 cards is pretty simple.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: It's not. That's not advanced calculus.

Jeff: So you're like GTO player. You're a GTO player where you're doing everything the way the book says.

Joey: I play too tight, you know that. You know that. My problem is I always put somebody on a better-hand game.

Jeff: So you don't play the way that.

Joey: No, I don't. I'm not.

Jeff: It tells you to do it. You know the right play. But sometimes you.

Joey: You know what I did.

Jeff: Throw it away.

Joey: I have failed to commit.

Jeff: Right.

Joey: To the program.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: And it's like, you gotta. I know what you mean because really, the best players are those who balance both.

Jeff: Right.

Joey: They understand the math of what's going on but they're also watching people, and they're getting a feel, and they know, hey, this guy's always doing this in the cutoff. This lady's always doing this in the big blind. This is just.

Jeff: You do that. I know that you have that, you do that, you have that ability to do that.

Joey: A little bit, a little bit, a little bit, a little bit. Not nearly as much. That's why I don't play anymore because it was. I don't.

Jeff: You'll be back. You'll be back.

Joey: You think?

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: I'm playing a different game right now. Like a board game, with a little wheel that you spin and it's.

Joey: What's it called? Life.

Jeff: Life.

Joey: Yeah. So I'm playing life right now. I have four little kids, and that is the bracelet to get.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: Very nice. Well, I wish you the best of luck.

Jeff: Thanks, man. I appreciate it.

Joey: Hey man, thank you very much.

Jeff: Yeah.

Joey: For coming here. Is there anything you wanted to ask me? Is there anything you want to know about me? About all the great things I've done?

Jeff: No, I can't think of anything.

Joey: Yeah, me either. That's kind of.

Jeff: I like the mohawk.

Joey: Do I have a Mohawk? No?

Jeff: I was just.

Joey: I need a haircut. I know that. And I have headphones, so that screwed up my hair.

Joey: But I'm not self-conscious. I have to be honest with you. I'm so damn handsome that I sometimes need to dress it down, you know what I mean? I don't want to intimidate people too much.

Jeff: Right. I appreciate it.

Joey: So, hey, I'm a giver.

Jeff: Okay, cool. What else have we got?